Why Your Business Isn't Scaling: The Truth About Profit

I'll give you a little formula. Any business that wants to make $10,000 in their pocket today, here's the formula. You ready?

Today's guest went from delivering pizzas and living in a trailer park to building and selling multiple companies. He's done it so much that he forgets to submit his Two Comma Club Award submissions.

The problem isn't that we fail. The problem is the story we attach for what failure is and means.

Along the way, he built a 4-part framework for pulling out more take-home profit from the customers the business already have.

Overwhelm, procrastination, and overthinking. And so it's part of, part of our training and things that our groups discuss. That's the real enemy. You know, most people know what to do, they just won't do it.

This simple framework is called FRAP. Join us and hear exactly what it is.

Frequency, referrals, average ticket, and pricing. So every business already has these elements in there. The trick is figuring out how do I manipulate my FRAP? And that's where it's a deep rabbit hole because the creativity is endless.

Today's guest is Josh Latimer.

Welcome back to another episode of ClickFunnels Radio. Josh Latimer in the house. What's up, man? Good to have you.

What's up? Happy to be here. Thank you.

What's up? He's raising the roof. Yeah, dude, I want to jump right into this. Like, everybody knows you as the 2 Comma Club Award winner, exited a couple companies, but you married your high school sweetheart and are living in a trailer park delivering pizzas. How do you go from that to where you are? Where did the story start?

Well, I was luckily born into a multibillion-dollar trust fund. And so that—

BS.

No, no, I was introduced to entrepreneurship through Domino's Pizza because the guy that owned the local franchise in my town was also my football coach. And he was the first entrepreneur I ever met. And he was the first rich person I ever met. He wasn't actually rich, but he was to me because he had a Corvette. Funny story about the Corvette was he leased it. And he only had it about a year. He had to turn it back in because cheese prices went up and he could no longer afford the lease payment. But true story. And—

I had to sell my Corvette because of cheese.

Yeah. Cheese is a big deal in the pizza business. Let me tell you, there's cheese cartels. It's a whole thing. But I would drive around delivering pizzas, listening to, you know, Tony Robbins cassette tapes. And I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And, you know, I didn't know any entrepreneurs other than him. And so, I just got obsessed. So, my first real business was cleaning windows. I remember after the pizza thing, I actually did have a respectable brief career at JPMorgan Chase Bank. I took some securities license tests and I was a personal banker at Chase, okay? It sounds fancier.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, it complicates the origin story, but I was there for a minute and I called it the Soul Sucker 9000, sitting in my cubicle and it was awful for me. So I quit the job and started cleaning windows. You know, I'd knock on doors with a really junky 1993 Chevy Cavalier and just try to make a buck. You know, my mom wouldn't talk to me for a week when I quit that job. She's like, you're ruining your life. Homeless people clean windows. What are you doing? You know, so that was the origin story.

All right. So he's the only rich guy that you knew. He drove a Corvette because that is definitely standard for rich people. Like, if you have a Corvette, you're rich.

I didn't even know what— I had no context on any of this stuff at the time. So, for me, with limited information, yeah, he was the only rich guy I knew and rich guys have Corvettes. Now, that's not the case, right? Corvettes are less expensive than an F-250 King Ranch. People just don't realize that. But I didn't know that back then. So, I got inspired, but that knocking doors, cleaning windows, being poor, living in a trailer park thing lasted for a while.

Yeah.

But then it started to grow and, you know, it was never huge. But even that business, that was my first real business. You know, we were doing $50,000 a week squeegeeing windows, right?

Dude, how many employees?

We had just under 30, but a lot of them were part-time. Most of them were part-time and it was seasonal.

So you're scaling window cleaning, man. That's rad. Yeah.

And this is over a decade ago. You know, there's a lot more people doing that now. There's, there's actually lots of 7-Eleven Even some 8-figure window cleaning companies, believe it or not. The local businesses don't get no respect, right? So the internet marketers think they're all fancy, but you know, you can build massive wealth with like a brick-and-mortar, dirt-under-your-fingernail, blue-collar type of business. We have, you know, million-dollar pooper scooper companies in our world. We have Tommy Mello is the first billionaire that I know who came out of home services, you know. And so it's a real thing. Yeah. And so I sold it to private equity. I learned a lot of stuff when I did that. I got involved in many, many other things. I've built and sold 4 companies. I do have a couple Two Comma Club Awards, but I never applied for them. Technically, you know, I was going to go bankrupt with the software company I had, which is how I met Russell. And he saved the company in 90 days. I mean, he literally saved our company. And that company has went on to do Almost $40 million. I could get the Two Com Club C Award for that. I just haven't applied for it. And so we owe a lot to Russell and to ClickFunnels and the whole community. That's why my wife Ashley and I are just true believers of everything you guys are doing. And we're big, big fans of Russell and Colette.

Go back though. You sold this window cleaning company to private equity. I want to know, you're like, man, I learned a lot of lessons. I want to know a couple of those lessons. Like, can you short that? Because that's not a small thing. Like, They, they're popping the hood, they're looking at everything. The nice thing that you have, I guess, was you had the recurring revenue. That's what made this like attractive to them is you had a client base with some kind of recurring revenue and said, okay, we can kind of look at what the valuation would be.

Yeah, well, they were doing what's called a roll-up. I don't know if you're familiar with how a roll-up works. But, and I'll do this like third grader level. It's really, really interesting.

If you want to—

That's what we need.

That's my favorite.

Okay. When you sell a company, what you're selling is profit, The profit or the seller's discretionary earnings or the EBITDA or the cash flow. That's what's actually for sale, right? So if your business does $1 million in revenue and there's $100,000 in profit, then what's for sale is the $100,000 a year in profit. And then depending on the industry, there's kind of, there's kind of norm, normal, uh, multiples. And so what that means is if you sell for a multiple of 3, which would be common for like a small local company, you'd sell your business for $300,000, which is 3 years of that $100,000 profit, right? Now, the way that they make gajillions of dollars is because they'll buy 10 identical companies, all doing a million, all have $100,000 in profit, right? And so they might spend $3 million to get that, those 10 companies rolled up into a new company. But even if they don't grow it, even if they don't change the profit at all, that new holding company, because it's at a million dollars in profit, there's a different multiple breakpoint. So they can sell that for a multiple of 6 or 8. Which means they put in 3, it's worth 6, and they didn't do anything except consolidate it. They know how to create a lot more profit. They are like not necessarily good people, but they're very smart. And, and so what they'll do is they roll them up. Now they have 10 of these companies that does $1 million in profit. They spent $3 million to these people to get it, but then they'll take that million in profit and turn it into $2 million in profit in 3 years for free. And I'll explain how they do that, but it has to do with manipulating the pricing. Okay. Has to do with cross-sell, upsell, high ticket. It's raising average ticket size, which is very simple to do in any business. They do certain things with referrals and they do things with frequency, meaning they get your customers to buy faster and more often than they did before. And when you do that stuff, I call that FRAP now, but that's who I watch do it. Now it's a $2 million business times an 8 multiple. Now they spent $3 million and it's worth, you know, $18 million. And I know that was a lot of math. I promised I wouldn't do math. The point is, is the people that do the least amount of work make the most amount of money if you really think about it. And you'll have someone start a business locally, run it for 20 years with blood, sweat, and tears. They sell it for a multiple of 3 or 4, not understanding that's going to get rolled up 3 or 4 times up the private equity food chain. And it just becomes part of some nameless, faceless corporation somewhere. And there's massive wealth being created every single time it exchanges until it winds up on the stock market. And these companies do wind up on the stock market as some subsidiary of a subsidiary of a whatever. And then your grandma, her retirement account is invested in the nameless, faceless company, and she's paying a multiple of 30 to own that company. But you sold it for 3.

But you sell this thing and you decide, okay, you did what now?

Moved to Costa Rica for 2 years. That's what we did.

2 years in Costa Rica because you had a payday. And were you thinking, okay, I'm gonna move to Costa Rica and retire? Or were you like, no, I want to go do something different?

The non-PR, just the truth of it was we felt like God said to move to Costa Rica. And I felt that before. Here's what we want to really blow your mind. My business wasn't listed for sale. My house wasn't listed for sale. I felt like God said, go to Costa Rica. Within 7 days, someone offered to buy my house and buy my business, and neither of them were listed for sale. And so we sold both and moved to Costa Rica. And when I was in Costa Rica is when we really leaned into this next project. It was a huge Huge level up for us. It was very scary and intimidating and getting into software and education and stuff that I knew nothing about.

Hold on, though. Can I do— can I— I want to dive into this deeper because I do not want to, like, just glaze over that real quick. I've noticed you and Ashley, you guys dive in and really lean into God's in charge and even the hat that you wear and even in your businesses, you guys are 100% faith first. And I love that. And I love that you don't shy away from it. And I love this story. How much, though, has God played beyond this a role in everything that you do? I want to hear. Just let's, let's have it.

Well, our belief is that God is real and he's not mad at you. Okay. I'm a fringe Christian. You can, you can, you can call me a fringe Christian.

So what does that mean, fringe Christian?

It just means like I'm certain that I'm heretical to different variants of Christianity in various different ways. The whole thing revolves around God's a good dad. Jesus revealed the heart of the dad. And it's really as simple as that. And so, when we— the way we treat business is we call it sneaky Jesus. The reason we teach business owners how to make a lot of money, the best way to have influence over someone is to help them make a bunch of money. It opens up the door. It's the foot-in-the-door offer, right?

Yeah.

So, instead of me saying, hey, go love your wife, go date your wife and play with your kids, and God's real and he's not mad at you. I could put that message out into the world and have a certain amount of impact. But by me going into the world saying, hey, I can double your take-home profit for free without spending a penny on ads, the reach is this big. And then as they make money, then it's like, oh, by the way, go date your wife and God's real and he's not mad at you. And so that's kind of, it's like when you give a dog a heartworm pill, you wrap it in peanut butter. Our whole business is like the peanut butter.

No kidding. I love that.

There's kind of 2 different ways to think about money because there's a big cohort of people that pretend like money is not important, right? Or they're like holy because they don't try to get money, right? Or like it's dirty or something. So there's a lot of that, like religious programming. And then there's people that worship money. Like they just do, you know, they give all their time, attention, energy to it. It's a scorecard. It's really never enough. I mean, when you hit your first million-dollar business, it doesn't actually change your life. In fact, it's Disappointingly average. You're like, huh, it's not that big of a deal. So let's do $3 million. Let's do $10 million. Huh. Nothing's really changing. I mean, at the end of the day, I don't think we're going to lie on our deathbed and be like, man, I wish I would have got the in-ground pool in 1988 instead of the above-ground pool. You know, like, we're not going to do that.

And you mentioned, and you mentioned 1988. This, all this is fleeting anyways. But, but I think too, Josh, I mean, I've— you and I have never hung out a lot or anything, but I, of course, know of you in the community and everything else. And, you know, doing a little research, this was also something that you had to overcome. You were kind of like, man, okay, money might not be the best thing. And like, if I go and push this, push this, am I doing the right thing? Like, did you have to overcome that mindset with yourself? Like, money bad or capital Y?

Yes. I call it an orphan mindset. It's almost like God is really, really mad. And he's kind of like an angry stepfather who you're trying to hide from, right? Because I'm so naughty and bad. And then Jesus is like, it's okay, Dad, he's with me kind of thing. Like, that's what I thought. That's how I thought this worked, right? Not understanding that like the nature of God is 100% exactly exemplified through Jesus. And Jesus was super awesome. But anyway, so this religious programming massively affected my business, my ability to make money, because none of us will will intentionally become a thing that we despise. And if we think that wealth is wickedness and we think that poverty is piety, meaning like, I'm a good person because I can barely even take care of myself. If we believe these lies that feel like truths in certain circles, it changes everything. You know, it's like you have one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake at all times while you're trying to build a company.

Yeah.

And that just rusts the tires.

Figuring that out, you know, orphan mindset, you know, what's the difference between a desire and a craving and how much— well, is it okay to even desire things? You know, is Is it okay to want to be generous? You know, my call on my life is radical generosity. My life goal is to give away a minimum of $100 million to certain people before I die because it's like fun for me. I think that's cool. Well, the only way I can do it is if I have much more than enough. And so there's cognitive dissonance of like, well, how do I get way more than I need to do this thing that I think is good, that makes me excited? I want to do it. Working through that took years. And it's a lot of what we help business owners with now actually is that mindset identity part. That's the whole game.

Was this something you're dealing with like in the trailer park working for Domino's, or did it kind of happen as you started the window company, or was this Costa Rica? When were you kind of sorting that out and when did you solve it?

I don't think I really understood the importance of identity and the stuff we're talking about right now probably until like 2015. Have you ever heard the quote that the You know, as, as your knowledge, as the island of your knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of your ignorance. So what that means is, is like the more you know, the more you should be aware that you know nothing. Socrates said, the only thing I know is that I know nothing. Meaning like the true marker of a dumb person, not dumb, like I don't mean that condescendingly. I just, they just don't know anything is that they're not aware of how much they don't know yet. So you have to learn enough stuff to even be aware of the fact that you know nothing, right? And so, like, I don't think I had enough life experience yet and entrepreneurial experience yet to fully understand how much I had slowed down or sabotaged what could have been true by that 2015 year time. And then I've gradually unpacked and started realizing that since then.

I love that where you talk about this is the smarter you get, you realize you don't know anything. But here's what I do understand. Is, yeah, I don't, I don't know anything, but I do know what I choose to have faith and action in. Right. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about is like, okay, it is okay for me to choose this and to go after it even ferociously. Right. And to defend my family and do all these things that I want to do. And that's okay. But that's a choice that we make, maybe even regardless of knowledge. But you have to kind of come to grips with it by yourself. And, and, and I think that's when you can scale. And I just think this is really good, Dante, for like Everybody listening, you know, I mean, you always are dealing with these guys who are just starting out. How often— and I'll just ask Dante this too— like, how often are you dealing with this, especially as people are starting ClickFunnels, dealing with the same thing Josh dealt with?

It's, it's every day. It's a misunderstanding of money being the root of evil, and it's a misunderstanding of just like everything Joshua was saying. But I even encountered this in my life, like 100%. When I first found this world, I thought a lot of what I was trying to do was wrong. And flirting with evil, and then I went down the same exact track that you've been saying, Josh. And I think this is so important for so many people to hear. Even if you don't want to, like, even if you'd never seen Josh before, you're like, "I'm not going to live my life based on this one thing that this random guy said that I don't know." That's fine. But if it if it provokes a thought, just chase that thought down. Find out an answer to that thought that you know is real and true, because that's what Josh did. He had a thought, and then he found the answer to that thought, and. He's had to build on top of that. But yeah, Chris, it's every day. It's, it's every single day. Just a normal person who hasn't had a business for 10 years is starting out doing the thing. If they're faith-based in any way, shape, or form, most everybody has a struggle with this at the beginning. And it, and it does affect their pricing. Like what you were referring to, Josh, it really affects the business. You, the hand cannot serve 2 masters. So when we have these mindsets, well, now people are not charging money for their offer. Because they think that that's wrong of them to do, and now they're an evil person, where it's like, no, you should have charged $7, and it's actually good and right and true for you to do that.

Well, I'm just gonna say Myron Goldnoy says there's 2 types of work always at work when you have a company. There's the work you do on it and the work it does on you. And we are not the same person we are right now than before we started our companies. There's this level up, there's this growth happening. And, you know, you have to reframe your relationship with money, even the language we use. I've noticed like wealthy people use words like capital. Poor people use words like money. Poor people focus on revenue. Wealthy people focus on margin. You know, little things like that, right? Or one of my business partners calls dollars certificates of good deeds. You want a really good reframe? Call dollars certificates of good deeds. Dollar is simply a representation of a useful thing you did for another human, right? And so accumulating lots of certificates of good deeds. You know, when my kids were little, we'd see like a supercar or a $5 million beach house and my kids would be like, whoa, Dad, look how much value that guy created. Because here's the thing, 99% of the time, that is exactly how that happened for that person. Okay. Are there people that lie, cheat, and steal? Obviously, they get more clicks. You might hear about it. But generally speaking, people start companies, they create jobs, they create profit margin, they reinvest. They are abundance, big thinking, risk-taking entrepreneurs. These are movement makers and world changers, right? That's what entrepreneurship actually is. And you'll actually get more wealthy by being obsessed with your customers and your staff, which we call internal customers, than you even— like, money is the last thing on their mind. Poor people are the ones that are obsessed with money all the time. And like, how do I get more? And how do I do this? And, you know, you start to realize that as you have success, you don't think about it that much. When you don't have enough profit, enough margin, enough money, it's the only thing you can think about. But as you start to succeed, it's not a conversation that's happening all the time. You know, Zig Ziglar said money isn't, isn't everything, but it's similar to air because when you don't have enough of it, it's the only thing you can think about. And I know that's true more than once in my life.

Yeah.

So God gives you this clarity and he, he tells you, all right, man, I need you to move to Costa Rica, hot buggy place, but Ashley loves it, right? She gets the beach. Do you now know why God sent you on that path?

Hindsight's 20/20. I'll tell you, during the entire 2 years, it was a little less than 2 years, but during the 2 years we were there, I had absolutely— it was the most confusing thing ever. Like, it made no sense. We couldn't figure out why we were there. But I will tell you, I discovered Russell Brunson on a beach in Costa Rica, listening to John Lee Dumas's podcast, right? And I bought his wares that he was peddling through his podcast, you know. And, uh, and so I had started a software company and I started a podcast in Costa Rica, which I never would have done had I not moved to Costa Rica. That little podcast was kind of like a niche one for window cleaners. Well, it went on to get a million downloads. It launched my software company. It changed our whole world. It leveled us up in ways we couldn't even understand at the time. But it was really hard. It was really, really hard. And then, you know, that software company, for example, I didn't even take a paycheck on that company for years of full-time work. And then I wire Russell, this weird guy that looks like a middle school kid on the internet, all this money. And then just in desperation, he's like, okay, we need to do this and this and this and various advice he gave.

Was that for 2CCX? Was that for Inner Circle or what was that wire for?

I was in the OG Inner Circle, man. Like I was in Inner Circle with Myron and Kalen and Brandon Polin and Alex Hormozi and all the people that were there.

Ryan Lee. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, Ryan Lee. I'm good friends with all these people now. I mean, I have a close relationship with Myron and I mean, pretty great network, like 3,000 YouTube subs at the time. I'm like, dude, you're amazing. How come no one knows who you are? And he's like, it'll happen when it happens. You know, I'm like, just wait, Myron. I think, I think it happened, bud. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

But, you know, Russell brought together these incredible people and I was kind of the weird one. Because I came from home services. I didn't have anything to sell the members of Inner Circle. You know, a lot of people that join masterminds, they join them because they want to sell their stuff to the members of the mastermind, right? It's kind of the bad parts of it.

So, okay, so you do, you do the brick-and-mortar stuff, but now you've decided— what are some of those things that you learned from Russell? Is this when you started kind of going into more like coaching other business owners?

I was coaching other business owners to survive while dumping an infinity amount of money down the black hole of my software company. Okay. So, my coaching thing started to really work and produce a lot of cash, but all of it was being plowed into the black hole of this thing that I made. And, the company does direct mail. It's called SendJim. That's what it's called. And anyway, so—

And, this is the company that you made in Costa Rica that you were not taking any money from, you were working full-time taking no paycheck, and that was SendJim. What was that?

SendJim does automated direct mail for local business owners. And you can send gifts, you can do like, like imagine that you get your carpet cleaned and then without you doing anything, you know, a whole sequence of like thank you stuff is mailed to your customer, but it also targets your 10 closest neighbors and drips on them too. We have a map called Radio Bomb where you can single, you could circle a single house on this map and send like a whole series of direct mail, postcards and letters. You can send gifts and brownies and caramels, text message. It does a lot of stuff and it's automated. And so it's really cool. It's like analog marketing, which is actually killing it right now just because—

It is. It's totally coming back.

Yeah. So, so that's what that business was. It's just really expensive. You see, you couldn't vibe code something in 2012. 2012 was when I wrote the first code before I had sold my cleaning business. I had started building this tool for myself, for my own business. And then it evolved. But yeah, it was really, really, really, really expensive. And it was just losing money. And so when I met Russell—

This is the company, this is the company that almost bankrupted you.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, exactly. I remember the first call I had with Russell, he was like trying to understand my business model. And I'm like, okay, so like, my lifetime value is only $500. Or no, it's my lifetime value is like $500. But it cost me, you know, $1,000 to get a customer. He's like, okay, that's a problem, you know. And then Told me, he's like, Josh, imagine you buy a truck full of watermelons and you pay a dollar for each watermelon. I have a whole truckload of $1 watermelon. Then I go to the market and I sell each watermelon for 50 cents. I'm like, yeah, that's bad. He's like, you think the way to solve that problem is to get 2 trucks full of watermelons. That's not how you solve that problem. You just get poor faster. Ernest Hemingway said, there's a story of 2 guys in a bar and he's like, so Bill, how'd you go broke? He's like, gradually and then suddenly. Meaning like when I joined his inner circle, I'm like, I need more marketing. I need more of this. I need— he's like, no, no, no, no. Like the unit economics are just broken. So we need to change the model.

Margin, not revenue.

But the other thing that was genius that he told me to do was to combine my info offer with my software offer because there's like an alchemy that happens when you have a tool mixed with info. And he, that's what he did with ClickFunnels, right? Like nobody was buying ClickFunnels. And then he's like, buy my Funnel Hacks course. Back in the day, his original offer, the rocket ship that changed all of your guys' lives and did all this stuff. And so, yeah, I did that and it just turned everything around like money worked now. And so because of my cleaning business and what I saw private equity do and because of what I did with that software business that Russell helped me with, I've just become obsessed with profit itself because it's the big domino, like profit per transaction, profit per customer margin. I think everything God made, he made to be profitable. Right? You know, a garden. There's no economic pie. There's an economic garden. And like the more money you make, the more opportunity that's created. You know, Myron says that consumption equals production, meaning like if you eat an apple, it just puts 10 seeds in the ground and makes more apple trees. So like you consume it. So that's how business works, right? But typical small business owners are struggling unnecessarily because they're unwilling to raise their price or cross-sell and upsell or create a high-ticket offer or Do stuff to their frequency, what we call FRAP, all that kind of stuff. And it always works. It can't not work.

I do want to get into FRAP in a second, but there's, I think, something that a lot of people would love to do that you've successfully done that we don't ever talk about. So you take SendJim, it's now saved, right? You figured this thing out, but you have now kind of stepped away from that business and you have a hired CEO, which I know a lot of CEOs that would love to step away and actually have that work. I want to hear how you made that work because that's not easy. This thing is still running today and you're not in it, but you've hired somebody to run that. Is that correct?

Things were so bad when I joined Inner Circle with Russell that, you know, I simultaneously switched my offer like I just explained and things started turning around. I started doing a webinar every week. I was really trying to get out of this hole. But at the same time, I had a new business partner come into my life named Mike. And we're still partners right now. I just had a board meeting with him on Monday, actually, because we're trying to buy another company. But anyway, so Mike played a critical role too, because what he did is he brought in a little bit of capital. It wasn't that much, but it was a lot at the time. But he brought the CEO in. And because I had like PTSD from this business, okay, it was like, it was like bad. Like it was so stressful for so many years. And so the CEO we bought is still with us from to this day. He's been here like 7 years now. I mean, I haven't—

So Mike's not the CEO, but he brought a guy with him.

He's a partner. You know, so we—I gave him a little bit of equity, and he gave a little bit of cash, and he brought the CEO to the table. And our CEO is, you know, an Air Force, you know, MBA, super organized operator guy, and he's really grown the business and stabilized it. And like all the real credit kind of goes to him and the team he's built. Really, I'm on the board, and we, you know, but but it's amazing because, you know, every quarter I get money. But I didn't do stuff. So, so there's mail.

That's a garden.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's really incredible.

He's watered it a little bit.

Exactly. So I learned a lot. I learned a lot about, I mean, my heart has always been in helping the little guy, you know, the, the guy who's delivering pizzas right now that doesn't even know that he doesn't know, you know, but he wants to start a business. I, I love that. And, uh, and yeah, so I think all these lessons were, were, were essential. for me to grow and to understand things that were hidden.

Even at that point, though, you're not— you're still not done going to school because you've got another company now with coaching that you've done. And this is the entrepreneur journey. Like, this is the roller coaster, right, Dante? The ups and downs, the ups and downs. And the people who win are those who are resilient and just don't back down. But you had grown another one. I'm looking here to like $1.4 million. But as it scaled and got bigger, the customers were having a worse experience and you could start to feel that. What happened with all that? Is that the business you're in now?

No, that was a, that was a business I sold to a huge CRM and it did a lot more revenue than that. What happened was, is we started a coaching program for primarily like pressure cleaner and window cleaner people in the beginning. I had no idea the demand for this. We, I was really early. You know, I've been really blessed to be like a couple years early on several of my things, including my direct mail automation app that I penciled out in 2012. Okay. Like we just were early. And so in our space of home services, there was no formal mastermind or coaching programs or anything. So I made one and it grew a lot and it just kept growing. But what I noticed was the bigger my coaching program got, the, in a lot of ways, the worse it was for the the newest member. You know, being customer 800 of a program isn't the same thing as being customer number 4 in a small group. It's just not. And so, I'm trying to think through like, how can you scale the positive effects of coaching in the best positive— like, what I'm saying is like, a small group of people gives people the best chance. Like a small intimate group following the right frameworks, following, doing the right things. That's your best shot. Yeah. To make it, right? But, you know, if you're customer 14,000 buying a Grant Cardone 10X Your Lemonade Stand course, like your chances of success are really low. It's like a joke. People are fatigued at all this stuff now. But what happened was, so as it's happening, we got an offer to sell that. So we sold that. And then I took a couple of years off. And what we do now is actually called decentralized coaching. And I feel like God positioned us again because the timing is just like chef's kiss on what we actually do. And I started building it 4 years ago after a 2-year break, trying to think through how do you scale small, authentic little groups, but they're also, it's not chaos. They're following a framework that can't not work, that always produces a quantifiable end result, helps them make more money. It's simple. A grandma could do it. A new guy could do it. A $10 million business could do it or a $100,000 business could do it. That's really hard.

Yeah.

to think through that. And that's what we've been doing. And so this, this FRAP thing, you know, I told Russell about it like a couple of years ago. I'm like, decentralized coaching, we're doing this thing and blah, blah. And he didn't like get it, but he's like, that's cool, man. But he was intrigued. Like, I remember he sent Todd like a 10-minute Voxer and he was all like intrigued by it. Well, then early this spring, he sent me a Voxer message and he's like, bro, we need to talk about FRAP. You know, we ended up doing this challenge with Dan Kennedy's company that Russell bought. All around Frap. And so as Russell started to understand what we're doing now, he's getting more and more excited about it because it's a really big vision. It's like big. And essentially what we do is we help people launch local mastermind groups. And the big difference, one of the big differences is the people launching these groups are not gurus. They don't have a rented Lambo. They're not Instagram famous. They don't do—

A rented Lambo.

Yeah, they don't do ice baths with Andy Elliott at 3 AM. Like, We don't do any of that stuff. People are fatigued at the gurus or what I call the liars and the charlatans. I get it, dude. I get it. It's aggressive language, but marketing agencies have screwed small business owners for years. They just overpromise, underdeliver over and over and over. All of us have hired 10 of them. All of them feel the same. Are there good ones? Yes. But that's not the point. The point is like people are sick of it. And then the course sellers, like just selling info by itself is really hard right now. Because people don't want it. You can go on YouTube and ChatGPT and you can learn any information. Information has never been the problem in the first place. Identity, connection, belief is the problem. Like belief is transferable, right? So when you're in a small group of people that are thinking bigger than you are, it becomes unreasonable to not think bigger. And you don't even have to learn anything. It just happens like through osmosis. And so I feel like this local mastermind thing is really, really cool, you know, especially after COVID and people are more isolated. They live on an island. There's a lot of fear in the market. You know, as of the recording of this, we're like bombing Iran and the inflation and gas costs. You need like a home equity loan to get a tank of gas. So as this is all happening, our kind of like message in the wilderness is like, hey, forget all that stuff. Like, let's get together with 3 to 5 people 5 miles from you and let's go double your profit. And we can do it without spending any money on ads. And that's a really compelling message right now.

Everybody knows FOMO, right? But there's another one that I have in my notes, FOPO. What's— what in the heck is that? And how does that relate to FRAP? And then I want to get into the framework of FRAP.

I like acronyms. I like proprietary language. It's a learning device, right? It's easier to encapsulate wisdom through a quote or through an acronym. So FOPO is an acronym for fear, overwhelm, procrastination, and overthinking. And so it's part of our training and things that Our groups discuss, right? And that's the real enemy. Most people know what to do, they just won't do it. Obese people aren't confused on what a macro is. Like, I've struggled with my weight my whole life, up and down. I'm not confused. I don't have an information problem. I know eating birthday cake for breakfast is a bad idea, okay? Like, I am aware, but I'll do it anyway. So, if we don't have an info problem, what do we have? We have a behavior problem. That's why FOPO comes in. We have an overthinking problem. Yeah.

We have it procrastinating. So fear, overwhelm, procrastination, and overthinking?

Yes. Yes. And each one of those things is defeated a different way. Like you have to, you have to identify which one it is. And it's the hardest part is labeling it correctly. Right. So, cause people don't say, oh, I'm experiencing fear right now. What happens is your nervous system changes, you start freaking out, and then you just default like an automaton robot into doing some destructive thing or avoiding something without even thinking about it. Right.

Or some quick dopamine hit or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. But you justify it and self-rationalize it 400 different ways. And, you know, but if we can label it correctly, like if what is it you're facing actually is fear, if that's the one, well, then we know exactly how to fix it. And the way you fix fear is through action. Action is the way, you know, there's some quote, I always mess it up, but it's like the treasure you seek lies inside the cave you fear most to enter or something. I said it like backwards. So it's like most people already know what they should be doing. They're just not doing it. Or Alex Hormozi always says people need to be reminded more than they need to be taught. You think you need 300 courses. What you need is to do that one thing you've known you need to do for 3 months, but you're just not doing it, right? You need to make that hire, make that fire, run the ad, say yes to the speaking engagement, whatever it is. And until you do that, you're kind of stuck, right? And so that's fear. Overwhelm is through a lack of prioritization. You know, when everything feels equally important, you can't get anything done, right? So, uh, in therapy, there's a word called catastrophizing. And when your nervous system is worked up and you have a lot of pressure financially, you can get overwhelmed easy because a little thing feels like a mountain. The molehill becomes the mountain. That's catastrophizing, right? It's like, you ever see Dumb and Dumber? They're like, we got no food. We got no jobs. Our pets' heads are falling off. You know what I'm talking about?

Yep.

So people do that as small business owners. So then you have procrastination, which is like, why do we— most people think procrastination is primarily a problem with perfectionism and it can be. But what I've found is that the problem with procrastination is a lack of desire. And what I mean by that is, is they don't know what they want. They likely think the thing that they They're going, they're chasing things that other people want for them on their behalf. On my honeymoon, okay, when I got married 24 years ago, there was zero procrastination on special mommy daddy time, if you know what I'm saying. Okay. Why? Because my desire is an 11 out of 10. It's like, this is happening. We, you know, hallelujah. You know? And so with your business, if you actually know what you want so bad, it puts a fire in your belly. It's actually very difficult to procrastinate. It's, it's, it's actually You can't procrastinate. So, lack of clarity is a huge, huge problem because when you ask most people, what do they want? They tell you a list of things they don't want. I say, what do you want? They say, I don't want to struggle. What do you want? I don't want to be in debt. What do you want? I don't want to feel like this anymore. What do you want? I don't want to have a wife. I want to have a wife that supports me, which is still an inversion of a thing you want. We don't know how to think about what we want. And part of it is we don't think we're allowed to want stuff. And it goes back to our original part of our conversation. People feel guilty letting the words come out of their mouth describing their actual desires in the first place. And if you can unlock that in someone, oh my God, I mean, it's way easier to take a scary action and to prioritize a list and to stop procrastinating when you are lit on fire, right? Because a real desire, like the thing you were made for, you know, You didn't even put it in you. You know, the word desire means from the king. Do an etymological study on the word. It means of sire, S-I-R-E, you know, sire, like a knight. It's like sire. Like the thing that your heart desires, God put it there. And then you feel bad trying to get it, right? And so what happens is our family and our religious institutions, they tell us what we're supposed to want. Hey, you need a good, safe job. Make sure you get that retirement account. Hey, make sure you do. And what's happening is there's a list of shoulds. Being, you know what you should do? You know, you know what you should do? You know what you should do? And then you do start the business. Okay. But you can't share your struggles with anyone because as soon as you do, they're like, oh, are you still doing that little business thing? Are you still doing it? When are you going to get a real job? Right. And you can't share your wins because when you share your wins, they think that you're bragging because it shines a spotlight maybe on some of their own inadequacies and ways that they played small. And so you're kind of trapped, which is why we need each other. We need to talk about these types of things together. Right? So that's an overview of FOPO. The last part of FOPO is overthinking. And overthinking is fixed through constraints. Constraints, meaning like positive pressure, calling your shot. For example, I wanted to lose 30 pounds, about 35 pounds back in like 2022. And I just wasn't doing it. I just didn't care. I wouldn't do it. We had this lifetime gym membership. It's like $500 a month. I never even go. So I went live on Facebook and I said, hey, if I don't weigh 199 pounds by August 6th, I'm going to donate $25,000 to a particular political candidate that I hated. Okay. And then I transferred the money live on Facebook into a little extra checking account I had. And I renamed the account the so-and-so reelection fund. Right. Of course, they all went nuts. My wife is like, what is wrong with you? But that's a constraint. That's an extreme example of a constraint. Because do you think that I weighed 199 pounds by August 6th? Like, overthinking is a luxury that you don't have if you're in crisis. Like, if your electric is going to get shut off at your house, Chris, tomorrow, unless you pay $500, but you don't have $500.

I'm going to figure it out.

You're going to get the $500. You're not going to read 3 books on like business money-making strategies. You don't have time. You have a constraint. So what you do is you act on what you already know to It's learning or doing.

And I see this, and Dante does too. Over and over, we get caught in this learning loop because it's these little hits of dopamine and we think, okay, well, I'm going to go read Russell's book. Okay, well, before I do anything now, I'm going to read Expert Secrets and then I'm going to read Traffic Secrets rather than next Tuesday, I'm going to do the dang webinar. Next Thursday, I'm going to do the dang webinar, and then I'm going to see what worked and didn't work. That is vastly different than, hey, I'm just going to go to every single session that you guys provide because I bought the program. But I'm never going to set the date and actually do the thing. This is what makes the difference, is people just go out and they fail forward and fail forward and fail forward. I love this FOPO thing, man. Like, that's broken down in a way that I haven't heard, and it's really thorough.

Me too. It really makes me wonder, Josh, can one create desire in themselves?

I think you discover desire. I think you can create motivation. I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't die on the hill about what— from what I'm about to say, because that's an interesting question. But my belief, based on what I think that I know so far, is that every single person was made on purpose for a purpose. They have a mission, a mandate, a destiny. It's inescapable. It's inexplicable. It's hard-coded into your DNA. You can see it in children, actually. I think part of our job as parents is to actually figure out who our kids are and then just tell them that. So the scripture that says raise your children according to the way they should go, go and they will not depart from it. You know what verse I'm talking about? Fundamentalist Christians use that as an excuse to beat their kids and be horrible. It's like, you better not smoke the cigarette behind the woodshed, Billy. I'm raising you in the way you should go. That's not what that verse means. That verse says, raise your child according to their bend, when you do a Hebrew study on it. Raise your children according to their bend, meaning figure out who they are. Because I talked to my daughter with personality type A different than I talk to my son with personality type B. So there's—

Oh, 100%.

I customize the coaching, the mentorship. But the one thing that I do to both of them is I tell them who they are. I speak life, I speak truth. And so you don't have to like make a tree grow, but you do have to water the seed. And so I think of desires like that. So, so if you're an adult who's never even thought this and you've already been programmed your whole life and you're in this black prison cell that's really locked from the inside, but you don't know that yet, and you start thinking about this, Don't try to figure something out right now. It's like, it's okay. But now that your RAS is activated, you're going to start noticing things or good exercises to ask other people, what am I just good at that I wouldn't recognize in myself? You know, what are my, or I'll have people do a Venn diagram. That's really cool. In one of the circles, you write down every single thing that gives you goosebumps, every single thing that gives you flow state, every single thing that you do where you lose track of time. And it doesn't matter what it is, just write it down. And then the second circle of the Venn diagram are your insatiable curiosities or your fascinations, or you could say whatever you're a nerd about, like you're a complete dork about something, right? And so if you talk to me about like behavioral psychology and marketing and framing and business, I can talk forever. I'm like autistically, just lovingly want to talk about that for infinity hours. For someone else, it could be talking about a blade of grass and how osmosis and chlorophyll works. And they don't know why they like it, but it's part of their nerd mode, their fascinations. And then the third circle are your skills, talents, and abilities. And this exercise, it does not tell you your purpose, but it puts you like in the zip code. It gets you in the neighborhood. And then if you combine it, you combine that with talking to people who actually care about you, Like, what do you know about me? What do you notice about me? You know, what are my natural proclivities? You know, because a lot of kids when they're little, they get corrected for things that actually aren't broken. You know, especially boys in like formal schooling, because we're fans of education, not forms of schooling. Schooling is compliance training. It's not the same thing as education.

Yeah, yeah, it's different than—

Now you preach. So anyway, yeah, tell your kids who they are. Tell yourself the truth of who you are. At the end of the day, all of us have to choose a delusion. And I'm just finishing my first book about FRAP, but the next book I want to write is going to be called like Delusion. And it's going to be about the fact that every one of us is fully living right now out a delusion. And everything that we think we have certainty on, most of it you can't have actual certainty on. There's a lot of— there's very few things we can know that we know that we know. And then the rest is sort of like, what do we think? What are we going to make a bet on? What you can, you know, gather based on what you know so far, you come to a conclusion, but that's still a delusion because there's not certainty. It's not mathematically certain, right? We should create a positive delusion for ourselves where it's like, you know, it's in our favor. It's like things are going to go well for me because if you think things are going to fall apart, that's a delusion. If you think they're going to go well, that's also a delusion. Myron Golden calls it a reality distortion field. And Steve Jobs was described as having that years ago. Yeah. Russell has it.

You have it to an extent. Yeah, Russell definitely has it.

When we did the challenge with Russell, I'm a planner and I'm like an overthinker guy. And so we're prepping for this thing.

Oh yeah. And Russell's just a goer. Hey, no, what if we do this? Yeah, let's do it.

And then he goes. Exactly. So like, as he— I got to Boise and we're doing the challenge live with Dan and stuff. He was like not stressed at all. His nervous system was just a straight zero. He's like, hey man, Yeah, doing the thing. I'm like, we're not ready for that. He's like, it's going to be great. It's going to totally work out. And it did. We did really well. But—

And if it doesn't, the best part about this too, Josh, is that not that he doesn't care, but he's resilient. He's lost enough in wrestling and in everything else that he knows that if he loses, he learns. I've seen this over and over and over where he goes in with a great plan, even if it was quick. He goes in with a great plan, executes, and then if it doesn't work, he goes, I'll tell you one real quick. We were in Atlanta and we had, I don't know how many different people. It was probably, um, I wanna say it was like 6,000 people. This was a huge event. And he was gonna do a new version of his like Funnel Hacks webinar. And I was running the speaking team. I'm writing all these notes, I'm recording it. Dave's like, you getting all this? 'Cause this is what we're gonna go do. I'm like, okay, cool. And at the end, we didn't sell hardly any. And Dave walks up in front of the room and he is like, all right guys, thanks everybody for traveling. Didn't work out how we wanted. We already processed these. Let's send those safes back home. Just don't miss your flight, everybody. Thanks for coming out. That was really fun. And they didn't worry about it. I mean, having that is special. It didn't change that they were really, really going to go after it, this tenacity about the next time, but they could, in failure, just fail forward. It's like, okay, we learned from that. Let's move on. And that's education too, man. You talk about that, that real-life learning. Listen, Adam and Eve partook of the fruit and then they had experience because of it, right? I mean, there's so much to go into these entrepreneurs that aren't even willing to try. And what you're talking about is absolutely huge is like, let's, let's move forward with a plan and see what happens.

What you just described is an absolute superpower. Like the ability to do that is rare, right? And it has to do with agreements and beliefs and things like, 'cause what the problem isn't that we fail. The problem is the story we attach for what failure is and means.

Or we listen to somebody else telling us about what that failure means, which is nonsense.

Which is one of many reasons schooling is super destructive from an entrepreneurial perspective because definitionally, like the definitional way to win in business is through repeated failure. Failure meaning data points. Okay. Data points. Russell did the Funnel Hacks webinar originally like 2 or 3 times a day sometimes for a year straight live. He perfected it. It was like an insane amount of times he did it. And so technically he kept fixing it. Which means there is a failure in every one that he improved, right? That's data. And because he did that in a really— he did it fast, he collapsed time, you become inevitable. It's because he doesn't view it as failure being a negative thing. But in school, getting something wrong is bad. Schooling teaches you memorization and regurgitation. That's not how entrepreneurship works. You don't succeed as an entrepreneur by looking at what already is and then doing the exact same thing. What you do is you have to look for something that doesn't exist yet. And then you have to do an experiment and then you get data. And then we get this language all tapped up. Like, it's not failure, it's data. You're trying to figure out what's, how do I message this? How do I language this? What's the word butter? How do I choreograph this? Which part of my webinar do I do first? How do you, can't know except by doing because the action itself is what gives you the clarity. And so people are trying to read books to get clarity on their thing. You can't, you can only get the clarity you need to fix your business by doing doing your business wrong lots of time.

Now, I will say this, though, because you subscribe to Russell, we do, right? Or people subscribe to you because they can shortcut this baseline, though, Josh, right? They can come in and say, okay, Josh has already made all these mistakes. And at this level, I'm going to do what Josh is doing. I'm going to do what Russell's doing. I'm going to do what Dante's doing. And I can take this baseline and now I don't have to trip and fall as much. I can start at a higher level.

I've always thought, I've done high-ticket consulting and built big coaching companies. And what I've always said, what I've come to realize is that I've never helped anyone succeed. What I do is I help them go faster, a lot faster. Because like you can't create hunger in another person. You can't create action in another person. So like the real variables are like their willingness to take action and let it hurt and then do it anyway. But what we can do is collapse time on 100 different things. And if you listen to Myron's teachings on wealth, wealth isn't, it doesn't have anything to do with money. Wealth has to do with time. A million dollars in 30 days isn't the same as a million dollars in 30 years, right? So like the collapsing of time is the thing, you know? So yeah, coaching programs are amazing because we paid $150 grand to be an Atlas. And that's a lot, I think, to meet like twice a year, right? So when you do that, you join a group, it's like, what was I trying to get? What I was trying to get was one nugget that will collapse time for me. And we did really quickly, right? And that was it. And so like my expectation wasn't, you know, talk to me every day on the phone. Like you'll notice like the lower the price point of the coaching, the more demanding and needy—

Oh gosh.

There is, right?

And then Dante and I know that.

Yeah. Yeah. And you got to— I have compassion because I was probably like that. The people that are like that don't know that they're like that. They don't have reference points. They don't know. I didn't know that my football coach pizza shop owner wasn't actually rich. I didn't know. I mean, he was to me at that time based on what I thought that I knew. And they think that the reason they're going to succeed is by coming to every single coaching call diligently and reading all the books 14 times. Overthinking everything. And they're, they're actually doing it from a good heart because they don't want to mess up. And they should actually want to mess up more faster. But how would they know that? Because they've been programmed that messing up is bad.

That's what me and Dante get to tell them, though.

Baseball, the Hall of Fame baseball players only get on base 3 out of 10 times. And they're the best in the world of all time, which means the best in entrepreneurship is like this. Don't get on base 7 out of 10 times. Offers are like that. Business is like that. And yeah.

So one of the things that you teach, we've talked about FOPO. Can we dive into FRAP for a minute? Yeah. Like, this is one of the ways that you help. And is it, is it just brick and mortar? Can it be coaching?

Like everything?

I would love to hear kind of the breakdown of this. Teach us about FRAP.

FRAP's amazing. And you can never give me any money ever. And make millions of dollars with what I'm going to lay out to you. The risk is—

Pay attention.

The risk is, is that it's so simple, you're going to think that you know and you don't. Okay? And it's not that you don't because you're dumb and I'm smart. You don't because it's a deep rabbit hole. It's deeper than it appears. Okay? Myron, another good Myronism is, you know, the biggest threat to learning is thinking that you already know. And so be smart enough that when I say what the acronym's for, that you're not like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, that. Yeah, I know that. No, you don't. Okay, so like I, I didn't invent FRAP. I labeled it like it's our trademark and stuff, but like I gave it a label. But FRAP, FRAP is simply an acronym for how every business already makes money and always has made money and always will make money. Every dollar you've already made already is because of FRAP. You just haven't labeled it like this and looked at it this way. If someone had a business in the Middle Ages selling baked bread, On the side of a muddy road. I would make that baker more money with FRAP. And if we went 300 years in the future and we're all riding Jetsons, like flying cars and stuff, like FRAP can't not be true because it's irrefutable, immutable logic. Okay. That just to set the table. You following me?

That's the table I'm sitting at, Josh.

Frequency, referrals, average ticket, and pricing. That's FRAP. Frequency, referrals, average ticket, and pricing. Let's go back to the bread lady. She has a certain price. She has a certain average ticket already. She either gets referrals or she doesn't. And her customers come back once a week. Well, then her frequency would be once a week, her average frequency per transaction, right? So every business already has these elements in there. The trick is figuring out how do I manipulate my FRAP? How do I use clever creativity? How do I use art and science? to exploit and increase each lever of FRAP. And that's where it's a deep rabbit hole because the creativity is endless. For example, if this lady, she might just be underpriced. Let's say that she makes 100 pence. I don't know what was the money in medieval times, pence? I think it was pence.

I think you're right, yeah.

She makes like 100 pence a day in sales, right? And she has to buy flour and she has to do things and whatever. You know, if we do a 10% price increase, it's pretty not that noticeable. It's probably not a big deal. And she gets to personally pocket that extra 10 pence a day because there's no additional cost, right? Usually depends on the business model. There's no incremental cost with the price, which means us as owners, we get paid on the back end of revenue. Meaning if you do $100 grand in a month, okay, and you pay your team and you pay your ads and you pay your insurance and you pay all the whatever, And there's, there's $10,000 left over. Okay. You did all this stuff so that you could keep $10,000. That's what happened, right? Well, what if we had raised your price 20% ahead of time? What would have happened? Well, we wouldn't have done $100,000 that month. We would have done $120,000 that month, right? But we wouldn't have made $10,000 in profit. Now we make $30,000 in profit. And so what this means is a 20% price raise in that example is a 300% profit raise. You know, Warren Buffett, everybody with a brain that knows business knows that price elasticity, pricing power is like the number one needle mover for unit economics of any business. Okay. So when we actually implement FRAP for a company, we actually do it backwards. We start with P, which is pricing, which is why I'm talking about it first. Pricing has to be figured out. We have to test the edges. People get very nervous when they talk about pricing. They have a lot of fear because they think if they raise their price, all their customers are going to leave, or they have religious programming. If I raise my price, I'm a bad person. I don't want to price gouge my customers. I also don't want you to price gouge your customers, but we have to understand where the edges are, right? And then, then we can get into like the art side of it, which is—

Sorry, Josh, when you say where the edges are, what do you mean exactly by that?

Well, the market will tell you where the limits are on pricing. The market tells you—

Oh, if you're raising too much. Yeah.

Yeah. And so like pricing isn't permanent. That's rule number one. Remember that you can test it. You could test it on your next 10 clients, your next 10 sales. We're testing, right? A lot of times you'll raise the prices and the conversion rate will go up. A lot of people's problems that they're so underpriced that it doesn't feel reasonable that their product would actually work. And so there could be someone running a webinar who's trying to sell a $500 course and they're like, no one will buy it. And they might, they might actually start selling if it's $5,000. Course because of the psychology. And you don't know unless you test. We have to play in the sandbox of crazy ideas. We got to test stuff, right? Big corporate fancy consultants, they go into Fortune 500 companies, they charge millions in consulting fees. All they're doing is FRAP. That's it. That's all they're doing. They're doing like split tests and they're trying to figure out price anchoring and the psychology and whatever. They're doing referral partnerships. Look at GoPro and Nike and Apple and It was actually Apple and Nike, GoPro and Red Bull. You have Aerosmith and Run-DMC for all my throwback people back in the '90s. Big companies know that joint venture marketing is a thing, right? That's frap, dude.

You know what? We just experienced this in New York. My kids were going crazy over this is the Swatch Omega promo. They got this little Swatch. It's like $300. And then Omega is, I don't know, $5,000, $10,000 at least, right? And they do these little ones and my kids went crazy over it and ended up getting some and they think they've got Omegas, right? But it helps Omega, helps Swatch. Like, it's pretty crazy. Really, really cool. Exact same thing you're talking about.

Yeah, exactly. Starbucks and Pepsi. I mean, when you go to a 7-Eleven and get a Starbucks, it's because of Pepsi, because they're a bottling and distribution company. Starbucks isn't. They don't— they can't do that. And so, but for your business, like how many little business owners are really exploiting joint venture marketing? Like they don't really do it, you know?

No way.

And then how much price testing are they doing? You know, have they really figured it out? No, they raise their price once a year, if that. And then average ticket, that has to do with how do we cross-sell and upsell? And how do we use scripting and choreography to get people to buy more stuff? You go to Walmart, you walk, you know, when you go to the self-checkout, they like, like a Like a farm animal. They make you walk down these little aisles of all the little trinkets to buy, you know? Yep. That's the corral. Yeah, exactly. So that's, that's FRAP. We call it, when you understand FRAP, you're going to start seeing it everywhere you go. You can't unsee it. It's literally everywhere. Every ad you got this morning is a frequency campaign. You just don't know. They're trying to reactivate you. They're trying to bring the money you're going to spend next month to this month. We have referral partnerships happening ways you could be in your chase.com app and there's a state State Farm ad inside chase.com app. This stuff's everywhere, right? And then there's price testing happening without you knowing it all the time. There's decoy offers and high-ticket offers. It's just everywhere. You go to the Chinese restaurant. Did they try to cross-sell you and upsell you? Probably not. But I'll tell you something. If that's a million-dollar restaurant, just that by itself can get us to $1.5 million. You know, I took a tree company in Australia from $1.8 million to $2.9 million In 12 months with zero ads, just from doing some FRAP. I worked with him for a year, just some of it. And his profit went from $190 grand to $700,000 in one year, just by thinking about this and saying, where's the opportunity? When do we do this? How do I do that? How do I do this part? It's amazing. We have tons of stories like that, like literally hundreds. We have a mountain of irrefutable proof on this stuff. Like it's overwhelming. Because it can't not work. I mean, it's— I hope it's— I'm laying out a logical case to you. It's like if you take any business where the owner's stressed out, we raise their price, we cross-sell, upsell, we get some local joint venture marketing going, and we start reactivating their past customers, what happens to the business? Yeah, it grows. The only way it doesn't work is if all of your customers hate you, and that— yep, right? That's never true, right?

So, so, you know, they bought from you once because, because honestly, Josh, like, do Do you see this? You've done this so much. You have some customers that hate you, some customers that love you. Everybody's always freaking out. Well, if I raise my prices, I'm gonna lose all my customers. Some, like, yeah, some of them are not happy and they're gonna leave. Sure. But the ones that love you are gonna stay because now you can allocate more time and attention to them and make sure the services are great. So yeah, you're gonna lose some customers when you raise your prices, but you're gonna keep the ones you actually wanna keep and then get more in on the new price.

Yeah, that's right. I had a, I just heard a story from one of our decentralized coaches helping another kind of a bigger business, a $5 million business. They were scared to raise their price like a couple percent. And he finally got them to do it. They raised their price on 4,000 customers. I think they do lawn fertilization. So they rolled out this price increase. They should have done a much bigger one, but you know, baby steps. They do it. And 11 people out of the 4,000 people requested to cancel service. Well, then they called the 11 people and saved 10 of them. So, they lost 1. Okay? And in a business that big, it wasn't quite $200,000 in profit, but it was over $100,000 in instantaneous margin creation through one move. Okay? And they didn't even go big enough.

And can you break that down what you mean, Josh? What do you mean by margin creation? Because wealthy pay attention to margin, right? And you just said Margin creation. So really, what does that mean?

What it means is that 100% of the dollars that were created by raising the price, 100% of it goes directly in the owner's pocket. Like, here is a Christmas gift. You just get to keep all of it because there's no other costs or anything. And so, so that's a big deal. Now, what most good-hearted business owners do when they have all this extra profit, what do you think they do? You think they go blow it on Cocaine and Vegas and bad decisions.

They put it back into the business.

Exactly. So now we can actually pay our staff above market rate wages, which makes our job position stickier, allows them to serve our customers even better. Now we can invest in new technology or expansion. Now we can have a better safety protocol. Now we can make a mistake with our marketing and nothing horrible happens. Like, there's some freedom to move about the cabin a little bit. Margin creates choices. You can pay off debt. You can take your wife to Hawaii that you promised her you'd do 10 years ago and you keep not doing it because you're underpriced. You're living in fear. You've chosen a very negative delusion. Just do it, right? It's like that by itself can completely empower you. And then when you get a win with pricing, it is like rocket fuel. And then you start doing the cross-selling, the upselling, creating a high-ticket version of whatever you sell. Everyone should create a high-ticket decoy offer. And it doesn't even matter if people buy it, but take the— think of the most expensive thing you sell right now. And let's just invent something that costs 5 times as much as that. Okay. It should exist. And it doesn't need to exist just because people will buy it, although they can. It exists because it makes your core offer sexier. You know, because when you understand like the law of anchoring and the way you present packages, for example, if I'm doing lawn fertilization, I don't say it's $100, yes or no. I'm like, there's 3 ways we can do that. We can do the luxury version, which is this. The mid-premium is this. And the essentials package is this. And like just by offering packages, your average ticket goes up. Just by having the expensive one first makes more people take the middle one. You see this everywhere. You go to the movie theater, it's 50 cents more for the gigantic popcorn, right? And so these are all, it's called choice architecture. Okay. There's real like language behind all this. Big business has known it forever. Main Street businesses. And when I say Main Street, I don't just mean a local business. You could be an e-com person. This is exactly one-to-one the same. There is no difference. Um, I don't have a lot of experience in e-com, but we did create a book for kids called The Kid War Plan. It's a 90-day handmade journal. Ours is a family project and we sold it on the internet.

I remember you brought these. Was it FHL or did you bring them to Unlock the Secrets? Was it Unlock the Secrets maybe? Phoenix?

Yeah. Well, Russell, he—

I have a couple. My kids have them.

A dozen of them. Yeah. And yeah, but it was a $100 journal for kids. How do you sell that to strangers? It's tricky. But what I noticed was that the more I priced it, the higher the conversion rate went up, right? So it's like when it was $49, less people wanted it. When it's $100, more people want it. I also noticed that if I, speaking of choice architecture, am I selling the book and then including the Kid War Plan course as a free bonus? Or am I selling the course for $100, including the physical book as a bonus? And those have completely different outcomes, right? And so, so all of this is fractal. Frap. All— everything we're talking about is frap. It's choreography. There's a different choreography at Waffle House than there is at a nice high-end steakhouse. Do we agree with that?

Yes. Yep. Yeah. One has violence. The other does not.

Yeah. I like Waffle House, but like, wouldn't it be weird to go to Waffle House and they had a $147 steak on the menu? That doesn't make sense.

Right. Doesn't fit.

But it would be weird if somebody greeted me at the door and asked if they could help me find a seat.

Yeah, but, but, but that doesn't mean $147 steak shouldn't exist in the world, right? It just breaks the frame of the choreography of Waffle House, of who we think Waffle House is.

And I, I also don't know if Waffle House is a franchise, but it also doesn't mean the owner of the Waffle House can't say, okay, we're gonna keep running Waffle House, but then we're also gonna have this other restaurant across town that's gonna sell the $150 tomahawk or whatever.

It could. So the reason I bring that up is When you raise price, you want to raise choreography. Like you justify the price through better perception. Okay. You don't just like raise your price a bunch. Like sometimes it won't work. We have to embed it with different scripting, different choreography, different imagery, different processes, different follow-ups. Everything should feel— the goal of anything that we sell is you want it to feel like it's going to be this. So they're pleasantly surprised it's only this. And your current price might be down here. So if your current price is here, you don't just raise your price up to here. You build a choreographed experience that makes it feel like you're going to cost this. And then they're like, oh, it's only this? That, that's what you're trying to figure out with FRAP.

Not only that, but I think we've all learned exactly from what you said a while ago, uh, you know, especially Dante and I, as we work with beginners or people that are coming up, like the people that you charge $10,000 for are a lot more work than the people that are in Atlas. It's just real. But people are afraid to go and say, all right, I'm going to charge $50,000, or I'm going to charge— at least get some type of high ticket, $10,000 plus, to see who jumps in. The people who are like, okay, hey, just tell me where to wire the money versus, hey, can you take 80 payments of $50 or whatever it is? That's the difference. Rule number 1, don't sell to poor people. And if you do, I hope you're learning at that time because what you want to do though, you can make more impact and more income By raising your prices, you're going to also probably have a lot less headache.

Well, Dan Kennedy is obviously all roads lead to Rome. Well, all marketing roads lead to Dan Kennedy, right? And he said, don't change your product, change your customer. And this whole topic is so cool. At the end of the day, what we love is to help people master FRAP. We certify people in this FRAP thing. And then some of them, not all of them, start these little mastermind groups and they all are FRAPing each other's business, right? And it's really fun, right? Because, you know, you can come up with really cool ideas for my business that are invisible to me. And I'll come up with ideas for you because all of us are dumb when we're working on our own business by our own self. Our IQ drops 100 points. Can I get an amen?

Yeah, it's the mechanic who still has his El Camino out front, you know, on cinder blocks or the cobbler's kids don't have shoes, right? Same thing.

Yeah. And you're so close to it and the stakes are high and there's emotion, there's some cost and there's just, it's, you just, you don't really have the ability To accurately coach yourself very well, and so getting outside perspective is huge. And so these communities are popping up all over the place, even internationally. And Frap is a foundation. Do they talk about more than that? Yeah, sure. Of course, they talk about whatever they want. But Frap creates margin, aka profit, aka choices. That's what it does, and that's where it starts. And they then they start joint with each other locally when they're doing things. You got the flower shop and the restaurant doing email and social shoutouts, and there's things that they're doing to JV together. Because they meet a couple of times a month in these groups. And so, that's the R part of FRAP. And so, the delivery system of these local masterminds is really cool because it's local.

So, you're recruiting people out there to go and say, hey, do you want to represent and do the FRAP in your local Colorado Springs or wherever?

Yeah. Our offer is we sell a program called FRAP Certification. They get tons of stuff with We have a really robust software platform all this lives in where the groups run on, but we certify them in that. Then we help them launch a local mastermind just to get their first 3 to 5 people, which can happen really fast. Earlier I asked you—

Not 50, 3 to 5.

Yeah. You don't even have to grow a mastermind group. You just have to start a mastermind group. And the reason why is because when you're doing it correctly, the group grows itself. Because all the 3 people, like the group is more valuable to them if there's 5 people instead of 3 people. And it's more valuable to the 5 people if there's 10 people, right? Because there's more JV opportunities. And so you got the contractor and you got the retailer and you have them, the chiropractor and the gym owner or whoever's in your group. And having a bigger group is way more leverage for everyone. Right? And you're not building a stage, you're building a table, meaning like you don't go perform and teach them stuff. You're just facilitating connection conversations around FRAP. And so you don't have to be, you know, a fancy pants Instagram star to do this. And you can make a lot of money doing it. We do. So we charge a fee for FRAP certification and then we make a little bit of money as their groups grow because there's a little fee for each seat that sits in our software that automates all this stuff.

Josh, I, I just have to ask. We normally do a segment on this show called Rapid Fire, and normally I try and take insights or cool things somebody said and make some cool fun questions at the end. I, I just gotta ask it now. I could— I'm loving talking to you about this price. Do I start with my price high and go down over time, or do I start with my price low and raise over time?

Contextual. I would have follow-up questions if this was a real business, but generally start high and then you're always on sale. So one of the FRAP moves we do is called supply and demand pricing. And this depends on the kind of business, but I'll give you a real-life example. Okay?

Cool.

So I do one-on-one FRAP consulting with bigger companies. I charge $100 grand and I'll talk to them every 2 weeks about FRAP and I help them do it. And there's a guy in Washington State right now that has a pressure cleaning business I'm helping. His name's Johnny. His company is called Johnny Tsunami. They're awesome. He's an amazing guy. So, um, that's a great name. So that is a great name. They're like a $3.8 million business trying to get to $4 or $5 in the short term. And one of the main things I did first with them that we're still implementing is called supply and demand pricing. And what that means, I almost like, this won't come through in the audio podcast, but I wish I could like do a doodle to explain that. In fact, I'm going to do a doodle and do a doodle.

Hey guys, if you're just listening on audio right now, please hop over to YouTube, uh, ClickFunnels Radio. You guys can watch Watch this video. Let's see.

Okay, cool. So here's the thing. A seasonal local business like Johnny, okay, this is what's called their revenue curve, meaning like there's certain times of the year when they're like really busy and certain times of the year when they're like poor and they're like, no one cares, right?

Yeah, yeah. Summer's gonna be a whole lot better than December.

Exactly. And so what most people do is they have just a fixed price down here like this. This is their price and it's the same all year long. Okay. Now, if you raise your price, that's good. You just get to keep all of this as extra profit, right? And that's great. But the more sophisticated way to do it to make the most amount of money is we actually raise your price way up here. Okay. This is your shockingly high new price where people want to throw up and they start panicking. But we're strategically always on sale differing amounts. So this might be 40% off here because of a logical justification. Hey, because of this reason. Hey, because we just got a new piece of equipment, because we're training 3 new people, we're, we're doing this thing.

And then because it's my birthday.

Exactly. And then maybe you're only 10% here. So maybe you're like, but you're actually always on sale. You'll see large companies like Kohl's do this all the time. Okay. So they're always on sale to varying amounts, but the math is already figured out ahead of time. And what this does is Because all of this now becomes profit. See this? And I estimate that he'll make over $300,000 and put in his pocket profit just from that one thing. There's actually 16 different FRAP moves. There's 4 per letter. That's one of the price ones called supply and demand pricing.

I've heard this. This is the foundations of business. This is the levers that we pull to make the things happen. I've heard it many times. I really, really like how you're explaining this, Josh. So, but, but for the, for the doodle that you just made, basically supply and demand goes up and down for these seasonal businesses all the time. So if, if demand is down, then my, my, um, my sale price is higher. Low demand equals 50% off. But when demand rises, then my, my discount lessens. 10% off, 15% off. So I'm really actually pretty consistently priced throughout the year regardless of season, and I can actually keep up with it. I've heard a lot of people talk about a lot of things with these kind of businesses. I never heard it said that way. I really enjoyed that, man.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I've worked— I've done this for a long time, and so like, I'm not some business genius. What I'm good at doing is simplifying complicated things. And so it really is simple. I mean, one of my favorite quotes of all time is Leonardo da Vinci. He said, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. It's actually hard, really hard to make things simple. You know, and FRAP is cool because when you really understand it, you get the Midas touch. Like I can look at any business on the planet, even if it's a billion-dollar company, and I've never built a billion-dollar company. So shouldn't I be intimidated? Absolutely not. I can make them $100 million because FRAP is how you make more money for anything. If it's a snow cone vendor with a bicycle in Costa Rica, FRAP's how that guy makes more money. Okay. If you are General Motors, FRAP is how you make more money. So you can take a lot of like, you can trust FRAP as a concept because it's not, it always works as long as it's work. Right. But, but yeah, it's fun too. And then if you combine the community element to it, because I've seen this firsthand building coaching programs when I'd launch them and they're like special and people cry and marriages are restored and credit cards are paid off and they're, they're growing like rocket ships. And then because we have so much success, the program grows. And now the average success per member goes down because now it's a more sterile corporate giant corporatey thing. And it doesn't mean it's bad. I just noticed that it's worse. And so, yeah, the way we're doing this now is like we're basically scaling those little group feelings everywhere with the thing that works.

And it seems so simple, but why are more people not doing this? Just misunderstanding? Is it noise? Are they too tied up in the things? Are they focusing on the wrong thing? Like when I listen to you, Just like you said, you're like, oh, yeah, I get it. But you're right, I don't. So why, though, are not more people doing this or even recognizing it specifically?

FRAP or focusing on profit or not doing what exactly?

Yeah, just even the whole FRAP, not the framework specifically, but those things in it, like pricing specifically. Like, that seems so simple. People just don't know about it.

Part of it's because the way our reticular activating system works, we notice novelty. We want we we don't want to work out and be on a meal plan. We want the Peruvian mint leaf that was discovered in the Himalayas that melts belly fat white. Yes. Exactly. There's so stupid, but yeah. It's that like we're programmed to notice novelty, and we we actually we can't see the obvious because we think we already know it. We dismiss it. We're like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Price. Oh yeah, I'm gonna already raise my price. But they don't understand. They don't understand how deep the rabbit hole can go. And so I'm like, raise your price, cross-sell, upsell, reactivate past customers like a boss. And there's ways to do that bad, ways to do that good. It's a whole— we could talk for 6 hours just on the F of FRAP and all the different ways you can do that thing. You know, the things I've seen in different companies.

And what you say right there is one of the key reasons why Russell is so big on A new opportunity rather than an improvement offer. It's like people will listen to it. They'll be like, yeah, I get that. When you position this, say, no, the new opportunity is FRAP. People don't know what that is. And so they come in and now you say all the different things the acronym represents and they start to go, okay, I get it. But you can dive so deep into this. Positioning in marketing is everything and it has to be a new opportunity. So the reason I bring this up is somebody who's listening right now and they think they have something that's an improvement offer or something You need to think about how to reframe this as a new opportunity so people think that it is the Himalayan flower or whatever we're talking about, right? And they're like, oh crud, I can only get this through Josh. Nobody else has FRAP. I need FRAP.

Yeah, we've— I've worked very hard on that. Like, so, so part of it's like proprietary language so that the way I language things, even when I'm being interviewed, is intentional, right? So when I talk about FRAP and supply and demand pricing, I use words like choreography and word butter and all these It's to activate, it's to wake people up. Okay. So I'm not going to say you'll make more money if you have better copywriting because you've heard that 6,000 times. I'm going to say we need to massage the word butter you're using. We need to relanguage some of your offers. And now it's Peruvian mint leaf. So I do that on purpose, not to trick people because I understand people. And so the new opportunity also for us really is local mastermind. That's the opportunity. And then like our mechanism is FRAP. So we have a unique mechanism is FRAP. And that's, you know, so I've spent a long time. We haven't really been promoting our thing until like the last couple months. We have over 100 of these FRAP chapters in 23 states and like 4 foreign countries have opened. Yeah, that's amazing.

Great.

Congrats.

Russell helped a lot too because FRAP is like the perfect encapsulation of what Dan Kennedy teaches. And so there's not one thing about what we do that violates or contradicts anything Dan does. Dan, Dan, problem with Dan is he's a genius, but his body of work is too big. It's infinity, ginormously. It's impossible to like to operationalize it into a do this, then do this, then do this, then do this. That's what FRAP does. So it really, it simplifies what Dan has always taught, which are these ancient principle-based truths because I know I've been in this game long enough to know that like I need a mountain of irrefutable proof. And, and so we have it and it's been a lot of work.

Which sounds a lot sexier than testimonials too. A mountain of irrefutable proof. You got a fun, a lot of fun Joshisms here too. They're awesome.

I mean, I didn't even tell you about the FRAP helicopter guy. I bought a helicopter because of FRAP. We call it the FRAP copter. Okay. Really? Yeah. His business, he does a million a month killing weeds in Florida. of because of what we're talking about here. You know, profit's a big deal. And for us, like this whole thing's sort of like a ministry too, because it's like once when I help people make money, they like me a lot, quite a lot. They're like, you know, that Josh guy, he's pretty okay. I think I really like that guy. And then what happens is I earn the right to be heard on a variety of other topics. And I think that's pretty cool.

I think that's awesome, Josh. I really do. I have another worm that has just been eating up my brain. So to save whatever brain I have left, I got to ask, when you're implementing FRAP, is it actually PARF? You said, if I implement FRAP, I typically start at P. So do you run it backwards when you implement?

We run it backwards when we implement, but my wife said we're not allowed to call it PARF because that's disgusting. Those are— it's a direct quote. So we still call it FRAP, but we The reason we implement it backwards is pricing is, uh, it's the fastest, easiest, quick win you can give someone. And even if they don't do a radical, complicated— what usually we'll have them do, like I had one lady break down crying and I had her raise her price 1%. Okay. She was so scared that I said, how about this? We're going to raise your price 1%. And then next Monday we'll meet again and we'll see how it went. Well, what do you think happened after a week? Nothing. It's 1%.

Nobody churned out and she made 1% more.

Exactly. So then I'm like, I'm like, 1% more. We did that for a few weeks. Finally, she's like, okay. But there's a lot of like emotion and psychology around it. But pricing can be implemented today, right now. As soon as you're implementing, whoever's listening to this right now, you're going to get a quote. You're going to get a lead. You're going to make an offer somewhere within the next 24 hours, maybe. Do a different price than you were going to do and watch how nothing changes. The only thing that changes is your reward at the back end. Because I said earlier, I know I talk fast. Because I believe in immersion. I'd rather give like a lot of density of value than teach one thing in depth, you know. But owners get paid on the back end of a dollar, the back end of a month, you know, all everybody, owners eat last, right? And so price raise, all of it's for you. You can choose to pay your staff more or make a hire. You can do whatever you want with it, but it creates those choices for you. And so we start with that because you can, we call it $10K by the end of the day. Yeah. I'll give you a little formula. Any business that wants to make $10,000 in their pocket today, here's the formula. You ready? $10,000, we divide it by the amount of revenue, your annual revenue your business currently does. So let's say a business does $225,000 a year in revenue. It's small, right? They need to raise their price 4.4% today and they have just collected $10,000 for free. Okay, that's it. This isn't hard, right? You can make more than that. Some people need to triple their prices. So when I'm talking 1, 2, 3, 4, 10%, that's fine. But when people get more confidence in FRAP and they've up-leveled their choreography, because what happens is when you start thinking FRAPpy, you're going to answer the phone in one ring. You're going to have a more premium user experience. Like everything will level up to justify your price. And then you're going to start believing your own delusion. You're going to be like, we're freaking awesome. Like we're worth $10,000. Like we really are on it and our service is better. And it has like this compounding effect. You know, it's almost like you got to be Thomas the Train at first. You're like, I think I can. I think like, okay, I did this little thing. And then it's like, okay, let's justify that 4% raise. Then it's like, okay, I'm going to do 10% more. Let's justify it. You know what? Let's justify it up here. Let's do it up here. And eventually you settle in. The market will tell you, you'll get feedback. But it's almost always way beyond what people think.

Yeah. And a good example of this is like webinar. For example, if I come in and I'm charging $1,000 at the end of my webinar, okay, and I'm closing 15%, 20%, okay, really good close rate. If I go up to $1,500 or even to $2,000 for the same exact product, my closing percentage does not go down. 50% or 100%. It just doesn't. Like, we've shown this over and over and over, but if it goes down 1%, but you increased your price 100%, same exact type of thing is go try it and go see what the results are.

Yeah.

It doesn't ever go down by the percentage, you know, that you upped your price ever. So the math usually works out, but we figure out what the fringes are. We keep going up until people stop buying them and go, okay, that did make a big difference. Or we change, like you said, the choreography. Maybe it's going to be the transition to close. Like, all this is figure outable, but just try it.

Exactly. And private equity, the first thing they do when they buy any business is raise the price before the ink is dry on the contract you signed. Your price has been raised, and then they'll do it again, and then they'll do it again, and then they'll do it again. In my case, one of the things they did was they started calling everyone on my customer list every 6 weeks, which is like way overkill for like a local window cleaner. But was it? Because they were printing money, okay? So some people got mad, but they had a call center. They're just like, hey, checking in. Do you need service? You need this? You want us to power wash your thing? You wanted it? And I didn't do that at that time. I didn't think of that. You know, we do like a spring promotion and a fall promotion. Well, the freaking business exploded, you know? And so they're at a higher price point with more frequency, and then you start cross-selling and upselling, the whole thing morphs into like, like if you can increase each letter of FRAP by 15% for a $600,000 business, it's now almost a $1.1 million business for free before you even turn ads on. A lot of times when I do the high-ticket consulting, I have them turn their ads off until after we've installed FRAP because, because it doesn't make sense. And I won't get into the nerdiness of why that's true. But a lot of people, they actually lose money per customer and don't know it. When they're doing paid acquisition, okay? Like they're spending $300 on ads to do a $1,000 job, okay? And they're like, okay, $300 in ads, $1,000 job, that's pretty good. But they only have a 10% profit, but they didn't know it. Which means after they pay their employees and labor and insurance and Verizon and internet and office and expenses and fuel, and there's only $100. So they paid $300 to make $100, but they don't even know that's happening. All they know is that they keep hiring marketing agencies and there's nothing but is pain and their bank account keeps going down and they're like, what am I— I'm busy. So we stop all that, we get the unit economics right, then you turn it back on and it's completely different.

Well, hey, we could talk to you forever, but man, we're running out of time. We do want to get to this rapid fire by Dante. We got to get to the questions. By the way, this is brought to you by Funnel Hacking Live that is coming to you live from Las Vegas at the Fontainebleau, September 21st through 23rd. If you do not have your ticket yet, I do not know what you're waiting for. Go to funnelhackinglive.com/cfr. Get your ticket now. Dante, are you ready for some rapid-fire questions?

All right, cool. Rapid-fire questions. What's your best piece of advice for someone who's building their first FRAP lever?

Massive imperfect action. You're gonna do it wrong even if you overthink it, so don't overthink it and just do it. Like, raise your price a little bit, do it right now. That's it. Like, today. Do it today. Do it now.

Boom. Imperfect action.

What's one thing you would do differently if you had to start completely over?

Come to the realization that God's a good dad a lot faster.

When it comes to FOPPO, is there a most important part of FOPPO that somebody should focus on if they're just starting out?

You have to figure out what you want before you proceed with anything. Now, if you're in survival mode and you're just trying to make a buck to survive, that's fine. There's honor in all work. But before you really venture to build something big, you have to know what you want. Otherwise, you won't know if you've won, if you've gotten there. And, you know, it's a really tricky thing because people want— they have placeholder goals that other people installed in them. Like the reason everyone thinks they want a million-dollar business is because they think they're supposed to want a million-dollar business. They think that's the thing you're supposed to want. But maybe you don't actually want that. Maybe you want to work 15 hours a week, and pay your bills and do ministry full-time, but you don't feel like you're allowed to think that because you're surrounded by big entrepreneurs or something. There's no rules. You can want what you want, but identify it first, right? Like, FOPO is way easier to get through if you know what you want and you want it so bad your stomach hurts.

That's the shortest rapid fire ever because you did so good answering these questions in the shot. Thank you for that, Josh.

Josh, you are the man. You've been an amazing guest and honestly such amazing supporter of the community and Russell too, and I know you're paying that back too. It is, uh, it's just an honor to have you on ClickFunnels Radio, man. If somebody does want to find you, maybe they want to start one of these chapters— I don't know if that's what you call them— where do they go to learn more about you and even get involved?

You can go to frapchapters.com. You can check that out there. Um, I have a podcast called the War Plan Podcast. I haven't been very consistent, but that is the main podcast I'm going to be using the of this year going forward. And so, if you like this kind of content, you can learn more there.

Love it, man. Well, hey, thanks everybody for joining us on another episode of ClickFunnels Radio. And once again, thank you, Josh Latimer. You are the man. Appreciate you, and we'll catch you guys next time.

Thank you. You guys are awesome.