Advice Line with John Zimmer of Lyft

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Thank you. It's good to be here.

We first had you on the show back in 2017. You also came to some of the How I Built This summits. So awesome having you. When you were on the show, and we'll put a link to this episode, to that episode in the podcast notes, you told us about how you and your friend Logan Green built what started as a carpooling platform, and then you built it into one of the biggest rideshare apps in the world, of course, Lyft. It's an incredible story. You guys went up against so much along the way. There were governments telling you to cease and desist. You had an epic battle with your main competitor, Uber, which was quite ugly, and there's actually a sort of a dramatization of this that came out a couple years ago. I thought you came out really nicely in that, actually. Anyway, since then, you— there's been some pretty big changes since we last spoke. You were president of Lyft. Logan was CEO. Uh, then in 2023, both of you guys transitioned to, uh, non-executive roles on the board. And then just last month, I think you, you both left Lyft entirely. So tell us a little bit about that. Why, why did you leave? Why, why was now the right time to do it?

Yeah, it was, it was very difficult. Uh, we, Love Lyft, love the team, love the CEO, David, who's doing a phenomenal job. But we wanted to both have another chapter in our lives and make sure that Lyft had the right leadership in place for its own next chapter. And we felt that it did. And so we had a 2-year process where we went from operating roles to the board and then off the board just a few weeks ago.

How does that feel for you? I mean, this is your thing. That you started?

Yeah, I think the harder step for me was leaving the operating role. It was what I did every day. It gave me a lot of purpose and meaning, you know, outside of my family life. And then going from being, you know, I would argue obsessed with making Lyft the best possible company it could be, to not doing that every day, to having all my time in the day free It was a hard transition, but the second part of the transition, kind of moving off the board, was a little less difficult. And I'm also excited about building again.

Yeah, I'd just like to dive into that for a moment because I think a lot of people assume, oh wow, you know, you build this huge thing and, you know, it's a huge brand and then you get to do a victory lap and then you can like go and drink margaritas in Mexico. And but when you go from like, working at, you know, operating at 100 miles an hour, and then all of a sudden, like, you are at home, you wake up, and there is no— all those things that you had to do are gone. You don't have to do them. Yeah, it's actually really hard.

Yeah, it was. Um, it's a privileged problem to have, but, uh, you know, for 3, 3 months, I think I felt relief. My shoulders dropped. I was on constant, you know, cortisol, adrenaline rushes, you know, when I was at Lyft and kind of in this fight or flight mode for many years because of all the early battles you mentioned. And then after those 3 months of just feeling almost like a physical, ah, like I feel a bit relieved, then I felt a little bit lost. And, you know, I'm in the kitchen with my wife talking about how we could, you know, reorganize different canisters. And she's like, you need to, you need to do something else.

Get out of the house. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, so yeah, it's been a journey since then. But, you know, I'd advise several entrepreneurs, made some investments, and now going back to kind of more full-time work again. And so I love doing it. I love creating businesses with missions that I believe in. And, and that's the plan.

All right. You, when you made this announcement that you were leaving Lyft in August, you also announced the launch of a new venture called Yes. And, and it said, I think you said something like, I'm gonna leave everybody hanging here. What can you tell us about it that you're comfortable talking about now?

Yeah, so just at a high level, I got to zoom out a lot during that time and to the point of thinking about capitalism as a whole. And I remember listening to a speech from, Millet, the leader in Argentina, and he gave this speech about how capitalism and entrepreneurship are the most amazing thing ever. And it was actually quite inspiring. But he also just said any form of growth is good. And I, so I felt like he got 80% of the way there. But if I thought about, well, soda, in my opinion, if you get people to drink a lot of soda, you apply capitalism to sugar water. You get diabetes.

Yeah.

I don't think that's a great outcome. I mean, it's, it's, you can build a successful business off it, but what we're seeing in food is that, you know, more and more people are looking for healthy outcomes. And so, uh, I said, well, how could we create multiple consumer businesses that are tuned to the modern world of, uh, social media, internet, and AI, but that have self-fulfilling, very positive outcomes? So simply, you know, we're creating a platform to help more and more people build those type of businesses.

You also mentioned that just the challenges of Lyft, and I know, you know, I've seen you from time to time over the years, and it's a big job, and Lyft is an amazing brand. I still use it, just used it from the airport recently, just actually last week. And you have been pretty open about the mental health struggles that you faced, right? Because a lot of people, even around you, they look to you. You're the leader. You've got to be strong. You've got to be decisive. But then you come home at night and you're like, I can't sleep. My brain is reeling, or I've got anxiety. And it happens to all of us, right?

Yep.

What do you think would have been helpful for you to know? Or I guess, what would you have done differently?

Yeah, I mean, it really comes back to the— basics of sleep, diet, and exercise. And it's— I don't want to blame external externalities. Like, I myself was putting a lot of pressure on myself. Like, I should be working at all hours to make this succeed. I have a lot of people depending on me. People have invested in the business, and I want them to do well. I want, you know, drivers and riders to be safe and do well. So it felt, it felt selfish almost to take time for myself. But I think the main learning is if I don't do that, if I don't get the necessary sleep, exercise, and, you know, nutrients, then I'm not gonna be able to better serve all those different populations. So it's really, really basic, but in the storm, hard to see.

Yeah, it's, I mean, absolutely critical. And I think we're gonna probably talk a bit more about that. Why don't we bring in our first caller? You ready?

Sounds good.

All right, welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just one line about your business.

Hi, John. Hi, Guy. I'm Alan Summerfield. I'm the founder of ShowerSpa, calling from Nottingham in the United Kingdom. And we're on a mission to make showers safer, easier, and more luxurious for everyone.

All right, Alan, welcome. So glad you're listening in the UK. ShowerSpa.

Yeah.

Spelled S-P-A-A-H, like spa.

Yeah, we put the R in spa.

I love that. What is ShowerSpa? What is the— what do you sell?

So ShowerSpa is the— it's the first device of its kind to mix soap and water on demand. It gives you a shower of warm, scented bubbles straight from the showerhead, which is an experience, frankly, not to be missed.

So it's a showerhead that basically takes the soap, like the shower gel or shower soap, and then it combines it with the water.

And so you're just getting sprayed with the Exactly, it's like a car wash for people, but way nicer.

But how do you rinse off the soap?

Do you turn it? It's two parts, there's a dispenser part, you just turn it off.

All right, so you're not just like in suds all the time. And this is a device that you screw onto the pipes?

Yeah, exactly, just screw it on a couple of minutes, yeah. If you can change a light bulb, you can connect this.

And where'd it come from? Did you find it somewhere? Did you create it?

There's two parts, so yeah, I created it, the technical part. The technical story started actually almost 20 years ago in Los Angeles when I was working for one of the major shower manufacturers there. That was the technical part. But then it was a few years back when my, I noticed my mother having more difficulty with balance around the house. And actually, you know, bathrooms are really dangerous places. And I thought, you know, after a career of designing just kind of discretionary products, wouldn't it be nice to do something that really helped people out? So that's where we focused, 'cause Not having to mess around with bottles of body wash means you're not fiddling with them, you're not dropping them, you're not falling over when you're trying to pick them up and so on. So it makes it much safer.

That's so cool. So when did you decide to like take the leap and start your own thing?

It's a classic pandemic story. I had a little bit more time on my hands and I thought, you know what, this idea has been kicking around my head for almost 20 years. I'm going to do something. I'm not going to wait for one of these big corporates to make their mind up. And I thought, yep, let's do it. Let's get it to market.

I love this. So, all right, so I'm looking at your website now. So now I can see it. It is basically a soap dispenser that you connect, just screw on into the shower head. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Handheld that you attach. And tell me, how did you fund it? How did— I mean, did you raise money? Did you— how did you get this manufactured?

I'm a classic bootstrapping story. I told my children that the bank of dad was going to close down for a bit and I cashed in some of my pension crowdfunding fund.

That's awesome.

So I'm bootstrapping.

Reminds me of another great British inventor, James Dyson, who was on our show many years ago. I mean, he did the same thing and he struggled and struggled. He spent all of his cash. And then of course, that vacuum cleaner went crazy. It's now the biggest, you know, vacuum brand in the world. Yeah. All right. So tell me where the business is at right now. You've got this thing you're selling. I'm assuming you're selling mainly online.

Yeah, mainly online in the UK. We've been in the market about a year. Uh, we've sold 2,000, 2,500 units, made about $200,000. So getting great reviews, you know, some, you know, people are calling it life-changing. There are people there who were scared to take a shower who now can take a shower again without worrying about hurting themselves.

So really this is designed initially for people who have sort of disabilities or mobility issues?

Well, initially it was designed as a luxury product, but then I discovered this real need. For people who have these issues. So it's a fully inclusive design.

Wow.

We use it every day. It is quicker, more convenient, and feels great. It is just a better way to take a shower.

All right, before we dive in, I'm so impressed with this. Tell me, tell us what your question is for us.

So we've got off to a great start here in the UK. Obviously the market for this in the US where you guys are is substantially larger, and I'm considering how do I scale into that market? And there's a kind of a nuts and bolts part to it about fulfillment, Do I get warehousing and start doing the same thing I'm doing here in the USA? How do I balance that with actually branching away from the mobility market into the broader luxury wellness market? Because ultimately every shower on the planet should have one of these in it.

Right, so how do you, how do you and should you get into the US market? And obviously makes sense, you've got 65 million people in Britain, but I mean 330 million in the US, right? It's a market that everybody wants to come to. John Zimmer, I want to bring you in. Have you seen this? Are you looking at their website? Have you seen it?

Yeah, yeah. I just checked it out while you were talking.

Wow, it's awesome.

Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic. And I love the kind of personal story of why it's meaningful to you, Alan. I think a lot of the best products and businesses come from a passionate place. So loved hearing that you built it for a family member.

Yeah, yeah.

So what do you think? I mean, any questions for Alan before we dive into his question?

Yeah, so do you know of that 2,000 to 3,000 units What percent was from people needing it for mobility challenges versus kind of the luxury use case you talked about?

Well, we've only been marketing it to the mobility challenge people, so I would say virtually all are in that market. But we also get some people who are buying it to wash their dog.

Oh, it's perfect for my dog. I cannot keep my dog still because I— so this is perfect for my dog.

Yeah, so I mean, my quick reaction is I would I would want to run a few tests on the different use cases. So the, now I didn't, I didn't even think of until you said that the dog use case and the luxury use case to really understand kind of what's your cost per acquiring a new customer. And it feels like that could be easier to do it in your current home market and really understand the unit economics of, okay, I want to go find that luxury user. I want to go find that dog washer. But to understand those basic economics, I think, you know, in the, in the way you ask the question, I don't know that you need to set up the warehousing yourself. You know, whether you think about using someone either like a third-party logistics solution or Shopify or Amazon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm using Shopify at the moment. I've got a 3PL here in the UK.

Yeah. So I would— I think there are obviously very low-cost ways to bring this to to the US, maybe it doesn't give you the same amount of margin, but at least you're learning. And so I would want to like test and learn as I expand into a big market because, you know, one risk of going too wide early is that, you know, maybe you're tweaking the product or the way you market it and can do it more efficiently. But balanced with, I think it's exciting to see the fast start. So I wouldn't wait too long.

Yeah, I think it was one of the many business books you read that says when you've got a product that can do everything, pick one thing and really focus on it. So I decided to focus on mobility as a starting point.

I think that's really smart. I mean, I think back to some of the episodes we've done, like Peloton, right? Or even Warby Parker. Like Peloton started with serious cyclists, like real, like hardcore athletes. And then it became a huge fitness thing, right? For mass consumers. Even Warby Parker, was for a certain kind of person frustrated with expensive glasses, and now it's a brand. It's a fashion brand. You go in and you get it. It's everywhere. I think that really leaning into that category of mobility, people who need extra help, that's a really smart play. I'm curious, are there— I have to imagine in the UK, there are, like in the US, retirement villages and large care facilities. Have you tried to to connect with some of these places to see if there is a world where, you know, there's large orders? Absolutely.

I mean, there's 500,000 care home beds in the UK, and I think 1.4 million supported living units. There is a, you know, we've got lowering birth rates and increasing lifespans, so we've got a care gap that's just getting wider. So absolutely, yeah, trying to make those connections. But that's a longer game than selling D2C off a website.

John, I have a question for you. I mean, right now, Alan, I'm assuming It's just you doing everything?

Pretty much.

Yeah.

Okay. At this point, John, I'm thinking he's got to take the leap and hire like a biz dev person. I don't know. What do you think in terms of— I mean, it's hard because it's still a small business and he doesn't want to lose, you know, it's risky. You got to pay somebody. But maybe there's a way to attract somebody to do business development and give them some equity.

Yeah, I think if you find the right maybe up-and-comer who's excited, entrepreneurial, and could have those long, longer lead time conversations with you or for you. Because I agree with the sentiment, both, both, Alan, I think your pushback is good on focus. Focus is really, really important. And you're kind of winning in that category. But those, I mean, the number of beds you just outlined, that's a pretty exciting opportunity. And so if someone could be, yeah, and I think in the US, it's pretty consolidated Obviously there's a long tail, but there are some players that have a lot of those care facilities. And so those feel like really good conversations to be having.

Yeah, I'm just getting into my first fundraising round with the objective of hiring that kind of biz dev person, if I can find that person.

So John, I'm just curious, like if you're looking at a product like this, right? I mean, it does make sense. You want to come to the US market and there are all these use cases, but I mean, what do you think? I mean, should he, Should he spend most of his time focusing on, you know, retirement communities, people with mobility issues? Every hotel you go to has an, you know, ADA rooms and things like that. I could see this in like, you know, Marriott Comfort Inns and Residence Inns and stuff like that.

Yeah, that's why, I mean, I think there's a few different approaches. I do think focus matters, particularly when you're a team of one. But I imagine there is a bigger opportunity or an additional opportunity beyond mobility. So I would, that's why, you know, the initial thought was run a few experiments with, with AdWords, Google AdWords, or some other product like that, or something on Amazon. You can market it in a couple different ways and understand your cost to acquire that customer. And, you know, for the 1,000 people or the 10,000 people that saw the ad, how many clicked, how many purchased, and, and what was the cost to find them? That would be really interesting information to me if I was making a decision about going wider at this point.

Sure. It's great advice. Yeah.

And then having a few of those conversations with the kind of channel sales opportunities to those, you know, over 65 homes because that does feel like a really straightforward sale.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's great advice. Thanks.

Yeah. Hopefully Alan will talk to you on the main show one day when you're selling billions of dollars with this.

That's been my dream. My dream.

The brand is called ShowerSpa, S-P-A-A-H. Alan Summerfield, thanks for calling in.

Thanks for having me. Cheers. Bye-bye-bye.

Thank you.

Good luck. Yeah, I like that. I really, I love when you've got a founder who's invented something. You know, most of the time it's engineers and they just know how to build stuff. You know, I mean, Dyson, Litter-Robot, we've had, you know, Leatherman, the Leatherman knife. Do you know why it's called the Leatherman?

I don't.

You didn't listen to the episode.

I'm going to tell you why. You caught me.

Do you know why? Because the guy's name is Tim Leatherman. That's right. I would not have guessed that. It's a perfect name for the knife and his name is Tim Leatherman. There you go. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. When I started How I Built This, there was so much to figure out. Booking processes, production schedules, timetables, sponsors, promotion. It was honestly overwhelming. And what I realized pretty quickly is this: when you're building something, the last thing you want is to waste time juggling a bunch of different tools that don't quite work together. That's why finding the right platform matters. And for millions of businesses, that platform is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US. From household names to brands just getting started. Tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to bounce between different tools. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go— with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/built. Go to shopify.com/built. That's shopify.com/built. Work can be a little weird. I've had plenty of those moments early in my career and honestly even later. I remember stretches where I wasn't totally sure what the next step was supposed to be. And that's the thing— work isn't always a straight line. And that's where LinkedIn comes in. LinkedIn helps you tap into ideas and insights from people who've been where you are, connect with others in your field, grow your network, and access tools that can actually help you find the right next step. Whether you're just getting started, thinking about a change, or trying to accelerate where you are, LinkedIn is built to support you at every stage. Because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit linkedin.com/HIBT to learn more.

There's no one like you, and there never will be.

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Hey, hey, hey, I feel the heat.

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Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft, and we are taking your calls, and we are ready for our next caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft. Uh, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.

Hi, I'm Terri Levy. I'm calling from Los Angeles, California, and I'm the founder of Rockstar. We are a company that is trying to make rucking accessible to everyone, especially women, by designing weighted backpacks and weighted vests that people can incorporate into their daily activities and get stronger with every step.

I love it. You said RuckStar, but it's spelled R-U-K-S-T-A-R. Is it pronounced RuckStar or Ruckster?

RuckStar or RuckStar.

Yeah.

Our community are called RuckStars.

RuckStars. Okay, I love it. So, so these are weighted backpacks, rucking, right? Awesome. Awesome. Great for zone 2 exercise. You just put like strap one on and then you would take a walk and it increases your heart rate. Tell me, how did you get into this?

Yeah, so I've been an athlete my whole life, a runner. John, I know you've been track star, so I was too.

That was a long time ago.

Yeah, mine too, believe it or not, mine too. And as I've aged, my recovery has taken longer About 4 years ago, I discovered rucking and I was intrigued by it, looking for something to kind of level up my daily walks. I was doing a lot of walking and hiking and not running as much and started building my own packs, did extensive market research to see what products there were out there and found that the products out there were not necessarily designed for women or the everyday woman. And the benefits of actually weighted walking are really incredible for women. So I decided that I was going to start building my own packs.

Wow, that's awesome. And so I've got weighted vests. And I'm just curious— and forgive me, I just don't know, right? How would it be designed different for a woman?

Well, so we first started with the weighted backpack. And we focused on comfort. Most women don't like to be uncomfortable. Most people don't like to be uncomfortable. So when people think something is uncomfortable, they immediately assume something's wrong. So we looked at extra padding. We looked at how it's going to fit on the shoulder blades, the impact that it's going to have as you carry. We have a removable waist belt, adjustability, things that are easy for someone to do when they're out on the trail or on a walk. Soon discovered that women don't like to carry backpacks. So we iterated and found actually a commodity item, which was a weighted vest and ran a test selling weighted vests and we had huge success. So then we designed our own weighted vest and now are acquiring customers with weighted vests, but moving them into the backpack. So our backpacks are actually starting to sell now.

And, and revenue, do you ever, can you give us a sense of what you're, what you've done?

Yeah, in the first year we did $400K.

That's awesome. Wow. And this is all direct-to-consumer?

Direct-to-consumer.

Just from your website?

Bootstrapped from our website.

Wow. That's amazing. Okay. Tell, tell us what your question is before we dive in more.

Yeah, so we're, we're a bootstrap startup, as I mentioned, and we consistently are selling out of inventory due to demand, but we have limited capital. The current tariff policies are exacerbating the problem with the uncertainty around our capital needs. And delivery delays due to related increased customs inspections activity. What strategies or funding options would you recommend so we can front our inventory investment needs, reliably meet demand, and grow sustainably?

All right, John Zimmer, I'm going to bring you in. You're looking very trim and fit now that you have not running the day-to-day, I must say. Thoughts, questions, comments for Terry?

One, congrats. That's a huge accomplishment in one year to have that type of revenue. And in the last few weeks, I just keep seeing people walking around the neighborhood with weighted vests. It feels like it's a really good moment. As Guy said, zone 2 is something a lot of people are talking about. So I think you're off to a fantastic start. So have you looked into inventory financing or line of credit?

We have looked into it, and we have taken on a little bit of debt, but we really need to buy quite a bit of inventory, and at the moment, there aren't that many lines available for financing inventory that we have found.

Got it. I have a friend in New York, and I don't know if we can follow up after, but I can provide maybe their contact information who has really specialized in finding people that are selling on Amazon or, or direct-to-consumer, because it does feel like in, in many cases a business like yours has these financing needs and it, and it was an unmet need and he's done very well. I'm actually investor in his credit fund, which does this kind of thing.

And even John, I think like Shopify does this and I mean there's some big companies that, that have versions of this.

Yeah, we, we took out debt from Shopify.

Oh, great.

So we took advantage of that for sure. Like I said, the demand is outpacing the inventory and we're kind of like we would have been further along in revenue, but we keep selling out. So we would have sold out, I think, 5 times in the past year. Just we cannot just bring enough inventory in. And that's the biggest issue.

Well, I mean, this is a phenomenal problem to have, but understand you can, you can go bigger if you solve it. I think like like I said, there's, there are these solutions. Sounds like you've already used Shopify. I think there are more parties out there. I would keep, keep searching. And then you can go to more of a, a friends and family approach where you look at the type of terms that Shopify was offering because things are going well, because you have momentum, you're starting to get the data on how much working capital you need to fulfill orders, what you predict demand will be in Q4. I think there should be other people that are excited to help support that.

Definitely. I mean, that's a good idea to use the Shopify terms to kind of go out and then establish what people will get in return.

Can I address the tariff question for a moment? Where are you making them now? Where are they made?

We're importing from China and Pakistan.

And I think, well, China right now I think is OK, right? But I wonder whether just to kind of hedge your bets, is it worth exploring— Mexico, for example, or even— I don't even know if they can be— I'm sure there's some US manufacturing, the prices would be higher, cost would be higher, but is Mexico something worth exploring?

I mean, definitely for our weighted backpacks, we kind of went down that road and looked into it. There just isn't the skill set there just yet to do what we need. And then also, as far as the weighted vest, it's the raw materials. The raw materials are the challenging part. They're tiny little iron pellets. And I've even spoken with manufacturers in the US that manufacture like frying pans or anything like to see if they have remnants that we can kind of figure out how to turn those iron remnants into iron pellets. And it's literally impossible.

Are you able to do pre-orders where people pay in advance? And is that something you've tried?

So I'm kind of have a moral dilemma with that. I am by trade a digital marketer and I just feel like pre-orders, I don't know, it sets you up for failure down the line. It's my own personal issue, but what do you think about that? Should we take pre-orders?

It's customer finance inventory, basically. I don't know what you think, John. I don't know if people want it, they're going to buy it and wait.

Yeah, I mean, it's not, I'd say it's not ideal for a customer, but it's better than spending whatever the cost is of the capital. And you can build fans. I love the way you talked about the community as rockstars. And I think use it as one of your community building. Tell them your story, you know, bring them in on the journey and maybe they get a small discount. Think about how much you would be paying the bank to do that credit financing. Why don't we pass that to the customers?

That's right. A small discount on a preorder. Preorder is going to be 5% cheaper.

I guess it's all about like positioning and marketing when it comes down to it, right? How are you going to position and market it? Because as a digital marketer, when you take pre-orders, I feel like you need to be able to let them know when they're gonna get the expectation of when they're gonna get their product.

I like that it makes you uncomfortable 'cause it shows you care a lot about the customer. Yeah. I think it's an opportunity if you are honest and explain your story. I think it's a good one. Yeah.

I mean, I'm looking, I'm thinking on your website, demand is through the roof. We can't keep up with you. We will get these, we're getting these out the door as fast as possible. Sorry for the noise. Sorry for the delay, but if you preorder, we'll give you 5% discount to show our appreciation.

I would order it.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we are coming out with a new product, and I've been kind of mulling over my head, like, do we just put it up for preorder as also a test to see whether or not there is really demand and interest for the new product? So you guys have kind of pushed me in that direction.

All right, good. Good. John Zimmer, any last thoughts?

No, I think, like I said, I think it's very exciting. These are good problems to have, and congrats.

Thank you. I will definitely want to connect with you to maybe see if your buddy who has that financing—

You're on LinkedIn probably, John, right?

Yep.

All right, hit him up.

All right.

All right, Terri Levy, Ruckster is the brand. Congrats. Thanks for calling in. Good luck.

Thanks.

All right. Are you doing any rucking?

I haven't done it, but like I said, it literally in the last week or two, I've seen a ton of people walking around the neighborhood, uh, with, with weighted vests. And I was, I was surprised.

That zone 2 thing is very, it's crazy because you can still have a conversation. And, but if you do it for an hour, it actually increases your VO2 max over, like it has a huge impact, like benefit. I've seen it. It's amazing. Sprints are great too, but if you can like keeping your zone 2 heart rate for an hour, it's like, and that those, those weighted vests. Vests really help you get there.

Well, this, this conversation might have put me over the edge.

There you go, you're over the edge, dude. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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Let's go.

All right, let's bring in our last caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a line or two about your business, please.

Hey guys, what an honor. I really appreciate your time. My name is Kobe. I am the co-founder of Slow Cocoa, calling from the Bronx in New York City. We are a craft chocolate maker. We make chocolate that nourishes the emotions as much as the taste buds. For us, that means no more than 1 to 4 ingredients, starting always with single-origin cacao sourced from folks we know and can visit.

Wow. All right. Welcome to the show, Koby. So it's Slow Cocoa, 4 ingredients, and you've literally have— you visit the places where that— where they grow the cacao.

That's right. My sister Tovia, who's my co-founder, we were just visiting our farmers that we work with in Guatemala. Earlier this year. These are often indigenous communities that have been harvesting for generations, and to be able to share our chocolate with the folks that are making it possible on the ground is a real important part of the work we do.

When did you start this business?

We've been in business just over 4 and a half years.

And what was the impetus? Were you in food or chocolate or confections, or like, what were you doing before?

Oh gosh, I wish I had some background in the industry.

I'm—

I joke that I'm a recovering real estate agent. For me, it was an opportunity during the pandemic to continue in this hobby of making chocolate at home, following the curiosity of how is this food that I grew up with from such a young age, how is it made? And the opportunity to make it from scratch became addictive in many ways.

When you say you made it from scratch at home, you were literally like roasting beans and grinding them, and or were you buying pre, you know, just chocolate bars and melting it down and putting it into molds?

I bought a kilo of beans off of Amazon. It said single origin Peru. That was it. And I remember thinking to myself, this will be the best batch of chocolate I've ever tried. It was the first time I made it. I roast them exactly.

You roast them in the oven?

No, at first I did it in the oven following a special, you know, turning. Yes, eventually I got a small little countertop roaster.

Right.

Go through the whole process. I have a studio apartment with a cat. So, you know, I covered my dresser at the foot of my bed with tin foil going through this process, I make it. Turns out I couldn't finish the bar. I couldn't share it with anyone. It was awful. So that started me on the journey of, all right, what went wrong? And how does Kraft chocolate actually deliver the flavor complexity that got me hooked?

Wow. So clearly, eventually you figured out how to do this and you decided— I mean, it sounds like already back during the pandemic, you decided you want to start a business.

I think I was one foot out the door with real estate in the sense that As soon as I discovered a space that was not gatekeeping in the way that I had learned to experience the capitalism that surrounds me, that was interested in elevating the industry for everyone's sake, that stood out to me. So I was learning to do it not from classes. I was learning from folks who in theory should be my competitors. They were connecting me with the original farms that we were partnering with, they were there when I had specific questions. And to this day, there is definitely an eagerness and a drive within this industry to move us all forward, but the reasons are different. It's for the sake of the folks on the ground at Origins to improve the livelihood of folks who are making chocolate possible, for the sake of environmental conditions that are totally neglected and externalized in the cost of industrial chocolate products, rather than for the sake of individual gain and profit.

All right. I don't want to rain on the parade. I'm just saying that what if you don't care about that? You just want good chocolate. And again, I respect that right there. Just say, well, you just want good chocolate.

Yes.

Like it's a business too. You got to make money. How is the, how is the business doing?

We're doing great. Yeah. I appreciate that. We've been over more than doubling in size since we started. We only sell at farmers markets in the local tri-state area, New York, New Jersey, New Jersey, and Connecticut. Connecticut? Although we haven't yet entered into Connecticut. Yes.

Okay.

And we have our online store as well for folks like that you mentioned, and that's a majority of our customers, I would say, who are not necessarily interested to hear about this whole backstory. They just wanna know, hey, does this taste good? To that, we, we love embracing that community because that's what this is all about. At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter where it's coming from.

All right, Koby, tell us, uh, your question before we dive in.

My question is about work-life balance, and I don't think I need more strategies for delegation or time management. I've read, I listen to the podcasts, I have coaches and therapy and a support system. I have the strategies, but I also care so deeply about my team and Slowkoko that I don't always want to turn it off. I don't always want to step away. Even as sometimes my health or my relationships get sidelined in the process. So how do I practice personal sustainability when what I'm building feels like my life's work?

Ooh.

All right. I'm glad you brought this question. Okay. John Zimmer, slow coco. Kobe is, sounds like he's dealing with some of the things that you dealt with when you were running Lyft.

Yeah, totally. I can, I can relate, but I think, you know, the way to frame it for yourself is maybe you can help more when you do take care of yourself. And I think that, I mean, that is true. If you are not taking care of yourself first, then all those people that you care about, I think, will be less cared for by you. And so that is step one. I remember one day my co-founder Logan and I were talking and I said like, the thing that works so well for me is when I work out before work, but I just never, you know, the same kind of thing you feel like. I just want to put in a little more work, or I just want to get right to the office, or we have coworkers that are already in and I want to be there for them. And he was like, make it your priority. Make it the first thing you do. I don't want to see you until you've worked out. And it was helpful for me. It was almost like giving me permission, which I didn't need in practice, but I think I needed in words. And so I think, I think you need to do the same thing. If you really do care about those other people, then take care of yourself first.

Yeah, Kobe, I'm curious, how many employees do you have right now, full-time employees?

We have 3 full-time. We're hiring—

that includes you?

That includes myself, correct?

Yeah.

And that will also include our first non-contractor full-time employee starting, starting next month. And we have 10, a total of 10, including the rest of our team.

And that's people who are working the farmers markets and, and things like that.

So operations.

So are you When you say you are just grinding all the time, are you like roasting the chocolate beans? Are you like, what do you, tell me a little bit about what that means.

Yeah, this is where it gets tricky because we've really invested in the systems that allow me to not be making chocolate primarily anymore. So I'm involved in quality control, recipe development, and sales, which is what I love doing, being out at the farmer's market, connecting with folks. At the same time, it's only highlighted the problem even more so, which is, the system might be there to allow me to step away, but part of me maybe as an entrepreneur believes I can have it all, that I can step away, that my relationships can be there to support me even as I am always just thinking about it. This is just the air that I breathe, and I love that about me and about the business, that, that it's around me and always percolating. And I think those closest to me appreciate that too, but there is dissonance that I'm not always so aware about in practice.

John, you know, this reminds me of something. I'm going to remind you of a conversation we had a few years ago. But Koby, I mean, you have to believe that your business is better when you are better. Once you accept and understand that, then you can start to figure out the logistics, like the actual tactics that you have to do. And the reason why I say— I alluded to something that a conversation John and I had years ago is because I think this is a simple hack that has really helped me, right? You have to decide that you are going to do the things you need to do every day to enable you to function well. And one of the things I made a decision to do was to brick my phone. And I know many years ago, John, you invested in a Light Phone. That phone, and I have one, it's a phone that's not really, it doesn't allow you to get distracted. It just makes calls and, right? I didn't end up using it that much, but I brick my, I have a device called a brick. It's literally, it's a magnet on my fridge. And I swipe my phone over it and it locks out everything on my phone. I can pick up to, I think, 20 apps. And really, 20 apps is nothing if you think about it. It's like weather or the Maps app. Like, it's very— so I can't check email. I can't do anything until I work out and I have some sunshine. And then I start my day. And there are some, you know, maybe there are some days where people are like, where were you? Where are you? But I have to do it. And at the end of the day, I'm much better. I perform and operate much better. Right. Do you, is there, is there like a version of that that you do, John Zimmer?

Yeah.

Yeah.

First step is, uh, take the phone out of your bedroom if it's still there. Like, I just have a rule, you know, I got an alarm clock. It's like a shocking, a shockingly obvious thing.

Yeah.

But a lot of people, I'm reminded because I did that many years ago, like when people say, yeah, you know, I first, I first, I got to get an alarm clock and it's like, I was like, okay, that's step one. No cell phones in the bedroom. Sleep is so critical. And it's tempting when it's there and you get an alert or whatever. So my path was alarm clock to brick and now Light Phone 3, their third device. I'm using as my, it's my only phone that has a SIM card.

Wow. You don't have a smartphone at all.

I do have my iPhone that I took the SIM card out of because I was in Europe at the time and they have removable SIM cards, which was helpful. And I tether from the Light Phone to the iPhone if there's an app or function that I need. But I can easily just walk out of the house with only my Light Phone.

Yeah, it's great. So I think that's just a simple hack. And I don't know if you have your phone in your room when you go to sleep or if it's the first thing you check. Is it the first thing you check in the morning?

Some days it is only because I have to wake up so early for the farmers markets on the weekend. That that blue light actually can help knock me out of it. A little sleep inertia. But on those off days, I definitely try to sleep in and make sure there's time away from the screen before starting my day.

Kobe, what do you want this business to be? I mean, I— because there you can go in a number of different directions and there's no bad answer, right? Like you can have an incredible lifestyle and, and this can be a million-dollar-a-year business and you could have a few employees and have an incredible, you know, you got the farmers markets going, you got your D2C. And that could be a great— or do you want it to be a $10 or $15 or $50 million business or more?

It's not the number so much or the size as the impact that for me, I know that's an easy word to throw around. I want to build something that eventually I can sell to its employees, that I want the workers to own, that I want to be able to exist for generations, that touches folks' lives across continents, all stakeholders in the entire value supply chain. And to me, that does entail some scale. From studying other worker-owned co-ops, there does need to be some scale element to that for sure. So I think that is definitely part of the drive that I'm testing the limits of.

I have some thoughts on that, but I want to bring in John Zimmer.

I think scale really matters. You know, you're very purpose-driven. Well, like, the bigger it is, the more purpose there is to go around. And so for me, we're looking at capitalism as if we apply it to the right things, and it looks like the way you're doing it can be very helpful to many people and give delight in the product, then I think depending on what's right for you, bigger is better in this case because of the purpose.

Yeah, I am a big supporter of capitalism. This show supports capitalism because I think it is the least of the worst options out there. I think it does lift people out of poverty. It does a lot of good and bad, yes, But I think in general, on balance, it's a better than worse system. Here's the thing I would say. Sounds like you want to build something with purpose, right? You're motivated by purpose. And you talked about one day maybe trying to sell this to your employees. Well, why don't you start now? I mean, you can build an ESOP, right, an employee ownership plan into your business now. You can start to create that mechanism now. You can start to give shares to your two employees now. And I mean, New Belgium did this at the beginning. New Belgium, you know, that makes Fat Tire beer, and eventually became 100% employee-owned. Bob's Red Mill, you know, 100% employee-owned. Clif Bar, I think it was 40% employee-owned. A lot of these brands built that into their company when they were just like, you know, a $500,000 company, when they were doing like peanuts compared to what they eventually became. So it seems to me like, The issue isn't— I mean, it sounds like there's definitely some burnout, but when you're building something with purpose, then you also have other people who are stakeholders, who are also owners, who then take on some of those burdens and some of those stresses and pressures.

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I love those episodes that you've done with those brands you named. I would love to start it today. And you're right to ask, why not? I am also wary of passing on risk prematurely to folks who have not necessarily consented or opted into that when they were looking for a steady job and something that they can feel good about and go home and turn off in ways that I haven't yet figured out for myself.

I agree with Guy. Capitalism is the best system we have. Ownership is a great idea. You can start it now. If you're too worried about them taking on some of the stress you have, then they don't get to maybe ride in that upside. And so obviously they can't put in their own capital or a lot of their own capital. We did something at IPO where we created a system for drivers to get equity. I think it's, I think it's a really, really important thing to look at based on your purpose and mission.

That makes sense. Yeah, we do offer a profit share on a quarterly basis. So especially for folks that are selling at farmers markets. So any profit from their sales, we deliver a percentage of that back to them on a quarterly basis. And that at least protects them from the downside while guaranteeing that our growth is tied in with their success as well.

That's great. Well, the best thing you could do— again, Koby, you, you run your business as you want to run it. I think the best thing you could do is to make a profitable business that's ethical and a business that employs people and allows people to pay for college and for mortgages. Like, that is the best possible thing. An entrepreneur can do, right? How many, John, how many, I can't even imagine how many college tuitions and mortgages were paid because of Lyft.

Yeah, there were, I think it was when I was leaving, like 3% of the US workforce had earned on Lyft. And when I was having those hard days, just reading those stories of that kind of thing, someone being able to pay for college is super motivating.

Yeah.

So yeah, let that be your fuel.

Let it be your fuel. Kobe Goodwin, uh, the brand is called Slow Coco. Thanks for calling in, man. Good luck.

Thank you both. This is huge, huge insights. I appreciate it.

Nice to meet you.

So John, I, I have asked every founder who comes on the show a version of the same question. We've talked a little bit about this already, but I'm, I'm curious, like now when you look back on, on where you were, right? When you were Zimride into starting Lyft and, and if you, if you knew what you know now, right? Which would make the journey less meaningful probably. But if you did, and you go back in time and say, "Hey, John, I know this stuff. I'm gonna tell you something that's gonna help you." Is there something you would tell him back then?

Yeah, just, you know, I don't live with a lot of regret. So, and maybe it's an entrepreneur thing. I just like to keep going and learning. But like enjoy, it's so cliché, but enjoy the journey. I mean, all those hard times, and they were very hard, have, you know, made me a better entrepreneur, a better parent, a better husband, and a more empathetic human. And so there's value in it all. One of my friends early on said something like that to me. He said, don't forget that this is not just about whatever you define as success. This is about learning. And it really, I would go back to that, even though it's such a simple thing, it was— I, I— it helped.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. John, thanks so much for coming back on the show, man.

Thank you, it's always fun.

That's John Zimmer, co-founder of Lyft. And by the way, if you haven't heard the Lyft episode, go back and check it out. It's an awesome story. And here's one of my favorite moments from that episode.

One of the kind of funny things we had to figure out was how to quickly market to the college campus, and so So one of our early purchases was a frog and beaver costume that we put on. I went to Cornell. I was actually going to Cornell on a recruiting trip for Lehman, and I was standing on the quad in this ridiculous costume handing out cards about this carpooling service.

Is this a frog costume or the beaver costume?

I was the beaver.

You were the beaver? Yeah.

Okay.

And at that next day at the Lehman recruiting event, and a girl came up to me and said, "Did I see you in a beaver costume yesterday?" Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a 1-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt@id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Chris Messini with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was James Willits. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Katherine Seifer, Casey Herman, Carey Thompson, Noor Gill, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.