ve BINAR The Art and Science of Demand Generation

Welcome everybody. I'm Andrew Miller, one of the partners at the Vendux Group, where we focus on helping clients to grow their sales leadership capital. And I'm thrilled to be here today with our friend and emerging strategic partner, Jennifer Harmel, the COO of annuitas. I'm going to let Jennifer introduce her. I'm going to let you introduce yourself in a second, Jennifer, but a couple of quick housekeeping notes for everybody. We're going to keep everyone muted for the duration of our webinar today and there'll be a Q and A at the end. So you can either use your chat function in zoom to submit questions or feel free to ask your questions or make comments directly and engage with Jennifer at the end of the webinar. The webinar is being streamed live on LinkedIn and it's being recorded. The recording will be on our site and on YouTube later today. Many of our interactions and views are in the recorded sessions. So with that, let's jump in. Jennifer, it's really a treat to have you with us today. Please just briefly introduce yourself. How did you get to where you are today? And then we're going to dive into this great and important and timely topic of the art and science of demand generation. So in a nutshell, you know, so intro and who is Annuitas? One more thing. I just noticed that you serve on the board of directors of the Houston Livestock show and Radio and Rodeo. I have been all over the world. I've seen some really amazing and crazy things in my life, but a rodeo is not one of them. So on my bucket list.

Well, you're welcome anytime. But first, thanks for having me, Andrew. I'm excited to talk about this as well. In addition to being a rodeo gal, horse gal, my professional career, you know, I didn't, I didn't really study marketing in college. I fell into it after undergrad and fell in love with it and frankly probably fell in love more with the scientific side of it than the artistic side in the beginning. And so went back, got my MBA in international marketing, cut my teeth at a couple of different agencies with B2C and B2B clients, fell more in love with the B2B side of things and the complexities that are associated there. And then I went client side in the, in the tech boom, working for Hewlett Packard, working for BMC Software, and then I went over to the consulting side about a dozen years ago. So I my company, Annuita, has been with them for a dozen years. And think of this as A niche consultancy, so, so similar, you know, to a McKenzie, very white glove service with our clients, but we're hyperfocused on marketing and sales process. The IT that enables all of that all centered around helping our clients drive revenue growth. That's what makes us that, that's our secret sauce.

That's, that's very cool. So, so the art and the science of demand gen. What does each bring to the table in today's complex environment, especially in the world of B2B where many of our clients are and many of our sales leaders operate in?

Yeah, I think there's no question that science has played a huge growing part in demand generation over the last 5, 10, 15 years. I mean I can remember, I can literally remember when email was a new thing. Not to date myself too much but you know, it was. I can remember working to build an opt in database. I can remember talking about this thing called database marketing and how cool I thought that was that, oh my gosh, you can, you know, marketing is not about pretty pictures. While the pretty pictures are always going to be important, there's a way to track everything and use data to get better and better, you know, at what we do. I think today nobody questions the impact of science. Right. I mean, for God's sake, we've got AI. It's all anybody's talking about right now. And how do you apply it to demand generation as well? But we can't forget the art side of it that I'll inevitably dig into in a few minutes. But the art side of it meaning the, the understanding of your customers and your prospects. Right. Applying a thoughtful logic. And I almost, I think that there's got to be an elegant way to approaching your prospects and your customers. Right. So it really, really has to still be that balance of art and science again with science playing a larger and larger role as we just gain more technology and more capabilities.

Yeah. So what's your perspective and experience on driving both on mix? You know that the alchemy of both to, to maximize revenue growth.

Yeah. I mean most of our clients will, will come to us and it really shockingly hasn't changed over the last dozen years. There's always one or more of four or five issues that companies are struggling with. And our clients are all B2B clients. And I'll tell you that they're the larger the company, it's like the more problems they have that they need to solve. Right. One is always going to be, oh my gosh, we're not generating enough demand. We need more Leads, right? Sales isn't happy with marketing, marketing isn't happy with sales. There's tremendous misalignment there. Another big issue is I have no idea how I'm performing from a marketing perspective. You're spending millions and millions of dollars on paid advertising and have no idea what you're getting out of it. Sure, you might know opens and clicks, but can you tell what turned into a closed one deal? Most of our clients cannot. Right. And part and parcel to that is just data issues. And that's why I say the bigger the company, it's really true. The bigger the company, it's like the more problems that they have because when you grow and oftentimes you're acquiring companies or merging with other companies, the more data sets you have. Right? All of your data is not in one place. There's not a single source of truth. And you're just constantly going around trying to, you're flying blind in regards to really understanding who your best prospects and your best customers are. And so science today can help a lot with that, right? Obviously. But thinking back to the art of that as well, like how can you really understand things like what's going on in the minds of your prospects and your customers, right? What's keeping them up at night? And guess what that needs to inform what, what advertising channels you're spending your money on, right? Where are they going to to educate themselves? What kind of content should you be putting in front of your prospects and customers? What kind of message is going to resonate with on what their pain points are? And you're not really going to find that out through science. You're going to find that out by, believe it or not, actually talking to them. We will spend the first call it month of working with any new client and literally having interviews with our clients prospects and customers to ask them a lot of those questions. Hey, what's going on in your industry right now? What are you guys talking about? Right? What are you learning about what regulatory or technology innovations are impacting your market? And whatever it is that you're selling, what's keeping you up at night? What are the steps that you went through if you're a customer, what are the steps that you went through to make a purchasing decision? You know, one of the other things that that has changed dramatically over the past just handful of years. And as marketers and sales leaders alike, we all, we intuitively know that. But when you look at the numbers, you know, put out by Gartner or other analysts, the number of people in a B2B buying process that are involved in the decision, it has skyrocketed. Right. And I was at a Forrester event earlier this year where they're not even talking about buying groups. You're now talking about buying networks. Right. So now you've got the key, you've got procurement and IT and. Right. Several others. But now you've got these influencers also on the outside that have a heavy hand in influencing the buying decision. And, and, and as these 10, 15, 20 people are all weighing in on how to solve the problem, what product or solution to buy, everybody's being bombarded with marketing messages. That's what's also skyrocketed. Right. You've got additional channels. Right. You've got all of this noise coming at you that for a marketer makes it so challenging to figure out what do I say to who within that buying network? Because what the procurement person wants to hear is different from what the IT person wants to hear is different from what the product manager wants to hear. Right. And again, that's where that art and science has to, it has to work together.

As Frank Zappa said, this is the crux of the apostrophe. So the science allows marketers to do stuff at scale, which is why there's so much noise.

That's right.

The art side of it, as you said, is the stuff that allows us to understand very specifically who are we talking to? What are their pain points? What are the things that we have that can fix their problems? How do you scale? So there's no question about, on the subject of scaling, there's no, no argument about leveraging science to scale to get messages out consistently, en masse to anyone. But how then on the other side of that, of the coin with the art side, isn't. Isn't the art portion of this subject the throttling piece of it? Doesn't, doesn't art restrict our ability to scale in, or in other words, how do we use the art side to scale effectively? Also to be talking to hundreds or thousands of potential prospects in a more personalized way.

Yeah, I think the art side is what has to come first, Andrew, actually, because at the outset, you. Let me back up a second. What we end up building for our clients is so new compared to anything that they've done before. Right. So when you start out, you don't really have the historical data to say what's working or what's not. Right. Like I've said, I've mentioned, they've got data issues. The systems aren't talking to each other or they're just, you're taking a different approach, even as fundamental as how you think of your demand funnel. Right. We all know what I'm talking about when I say demand funnel. But the stages of a demand funnel could be quite different for what we build for our clients. There's typically additional layers of the funnel that we work to implement. And so the art side is based on our understanding, based of this firsthand knowledge and research that we're doing, talking to customers and prospects, we're saying, hey, based on that, we think this is what your prospects want to hear. We believe that this is what is going to push them from the top of the funnel to the bottom of the funnel as quickly as possible. Okay, that's, that's what I think of more the art side. We go live, we start executing on all of this. You've got a demand engine that is humming along, but guess what? It's never going to be perfect out the gate. It's all about then using the science and the data and the results to say, how do I optimize this? Do I have a demand engine that's effective enough and smart enough? I can look at it and say, hey, you know what? I've. 20% of my people are getting stuck between this stage of the funnel and the next stage of the funnel. What's wrong? That's where a little bit of the art and the science come into play again, where the art side's like, well, it could be the content's not resonating, it could be that the back end scoring mechanism we have in place. Right. Maybe that's not tight enough. Maybe we need to pick up the phone and talk to sales and say, hey, these leads that are coming over to you, they're not converting. Why not give me the anecdotal information, which is like 14 karat gold. Right. And as, as you have that engine going along for a period of time, you have the opportunity to just get smarter and smarter. And with AI, we're to a point where I believe, you know, the, the notion of auto optimization is quite compelling and very possible these days, but you, you don't have that to start, right? You have to use your research, use your methodology, use an orchestrated approach, and then use your data to figure out what's working and what's really not.

Yeah, I like that notion of that Everything starts on the art side and then depending on the analysis or the results of creating the art, then you're bringing in the tools and the science to Support the findings of the art side. Is that, is that.

Exactly. And I don't want to, let me, let me say that, that it's not like there's no science in the beginning. I mean if you have the data available, for God's sake, use it right, do some data benchmarking which is really key. If at all possible, you want to know, you want to get the baseline right. How are we doing today in terms of converting an initial inquiry to a qualified lead to a closed one deal. At least measure that so that you can measure your improvement post kind of, you know, transformation of your demand gen efforts.

Yeah. So you earlier, you mentioned that you know, you work with a lot of, a lot of mid sized to larger B2B companies and you know, one, one of their pain points is always oh, we need more leads. Well I can assure you even in our world where we're working with, you know, from startups to companies in the 70, 80, $90 million revenue range, that pain point is consistent. It's very rare. I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with a prospect who said oh we, we have more demand than we can handle.

Me too. Never. Never. But you're right, it's, it's the same. And we, we work with a lot of high, high growth companies so smaller revenue but, but have pretty aggressive revenue goals. We work with them to, to help them, them get there. But yeah, it's always I need more leads, I need to drive more revenue. And what, what typically happens is, you know, my, my first question is well, are you just looking for quantity or are you looking for quality? Right. And, and what we, excuse me, what we really do is focus on quality. A lot of times we get to a certain point in working with a client where they realize, you know, based on how we're looking at qualifying a lead that their number of leads are shocker. They're actually going to go down. The quantity is going to go down. Sales organization can, can freak out about that. Right? But we, we explained that guess what, the quality is going to be so much better. Does it really matter if the quantity of leads goes down? As long as your conversion rate from opportunity to close one deal is so much better, it doesn't matter as long as we're driving revenue growth. Right?

Absolutely. There's every business owner and sales organization would say oh yeah, no, no problem. Quality of lease goes down. Sorry, quantity goes down, quality goes up, conversion rate goes up. I am over the moon, sign me up. So, so that, so now we, we certainly agree and see the world in the same way that every business owner, every organization says if I had more quality leads, my conversion rate would absolutely go up and we'd be very happy. So that's the premise now in the world that we're in today with AI Dynamics. What, what are you seeing in terms of best practices and adoption of great AI tools? And, and before you answer that, I'm just going to tell you like my, when I think of this stuff in today's environment, to me the holy grail of being able to use AI is let's say I've got 500 or a thousand prospects and I've, I've used good art and good science to identify them, the icp. And I'm so I've got a thousand prospects and I want to have a thousand different agents out there, one for each, each prospect. And I've programmed these agents to get me weekly, bi weekly reporting and data and information on each of those prospects by title and by name. I want the, I've got a thousand CEOs that I want to talk to and every week or every day, each of those unique agents that are focused on each of those thousand people are coming back to me to help me be customized on what I need to do to get into that prospect one by one by one. One agent, one prospect. That's, that's the way I think about leveraging AI in, in a highly customized, information driven way. Is that.

Yeah, I mean I, we're thinking about AI a little bit, not, not differently, that, but in a lot of other ways too. And like I don't want to go down a huge rabbit hole on AI because I think we're all probably blue in the face talking about AI right now. But you know, so many, so many tools out there. I think people in the demand generation space, we're all still really trying to figure it out. I see my clients trying to snap on an AI tool for this and an AI tool for this and an AI tool for this without being able to find a platform like a single platform that is, is really smart about demand gen. Getting back to. It's not all science. There's still some art to it, right? But I, I think that AI down the road in the not too distant future, I'm going to say something spicy here might kind of replace marketing automation. Like I could see it going that way and I see AI thinking back to what I mentioned a few minutes ago, the auto optimization. Right. Today as marketers we're still, you know, looking at dashboards Hopefully. Hopefully we are. And to assess things like, oh, what piece of content is working best here, for example? Right. Or what was the optimal path to get somebody from top of the funnel to bottom of the funnel? What's the, what are the channels they went through? What's the content that they digested that. What's the critical path we call it? Right. AI should be able to answer that. AI without us anymore having to build the logic into marketing automation and personalization platforms. It should be able to say, hey, based on what we know about this prospect and what they've looked at on our website and the content that they've interacted with, this is exactly the perfect recipe to get them from here to a sale. Right? Yeah. So I think that again, there's still got to be art. I think we still need human beings definitely at the outset to enable the right methodology and the right approach. But that AI can be super helpful along the lines of automation and optimization.

Mm. I want to open up the floor in a second to, to outside questions here. I've got a. In your world, we. I'm interested to know who are you seeing out there that have done things right properly? You know, an example that we would want to. To achieve. And, and conversely, you know, when you go in a new client, what are some, some pain points? No. How have you helped an organization go from, you know, 1995 environment to a 20002025 environment?

Yeah, those are both really, really good questions. I'll. I'll air on the more positive side of that and talk about the client that I think did it really right and how we helped them. I would say the number one thing is making sure that you have the right stakeholders involved from day one. 1. Transforming the way that you approach demand generation can't be a marketing effort. Right. It can't be a sales effort. It needs to be both. It's got to be both. You need everybody in the, in the proverbial room at the same time to agree to the goals, agree to the why and agree to the how. Right. Everybody needs to have a little skin in the game. Another part of that is the actual financial goals. And I'll talk about, I'll protect the innocent, not reveal names, but we worked with a client over the last near four years and one of the things that we did, and we do this across all of our clients, but this client did just a fabulous job in adhering to it. And the it was building a model from day one that said, what are your revenue goals three years out Right. Where do you want to get to? And incorporating, what's your average deal size, what's the length of your sales cycle, what are your current, you know, again, data benchmarking, what are your conversion rates? What type of conversion rates should we see at ramp as we work with you and you use that to back all the way into how many engagements do we need per month, per quarter, how many leads do we need? How many opportunities do we need? Right down to how much money do we think we need to spend on events versus paid social, whatever. Right? What this. We all agreed to it. Again, sales, marketing, finance, everybody had skin in the game. There wasn't a single monthly quarterly optimization session that we didn't all come back to the table and look at how we had all performed collectively against those goals. Again, not a marketing effort, not a sales effort. It was a combined effort. Right? Marketing, spending the money on the channels, how many people are we pulling into the funnel? How did we do? Did sales pick those up? Were they, did they really turn into opportunities and revenue and then use the time together to discuss where we weren't meeting our goals? What did we need to do to change? What. Why weren't we meeting those? What levers did we need to pull? Right. And how can we continue to strive? So it was fantastic. The phrase we were all singing from the same song sheet, we truly were. We weren't always knocking it out of the park, but we were coming together. We could see that we weren't knocking it out of the park. Number one, a lot of companies can't even see that. And two, we really, it was just, let's roll up our sleeves. We're a big team and let's, let's solve this. And we did it. We had a tremendous success.

I'm going to come back to you with something a little spicy.

Okay?

You're the consultant and you are now in, in these organizations and you are bringing these various stakeholders together, sales, marketing, and others, so that everyone's got skin in the game. I'm the business owner. After a period of time when the plan has been agreed and devised and then executed and results do not equal what the plan was, how do you handle or prevent or mitigate? You know, oh, we're sales. No, this is a marketing problem and marketing says the same thing and people are pointing fingers. So who's. Whose throat do I get to choke it all?

It goes back to what I said, though. If you're doing it right from the beginning, there's not that that's their fault. That's right. That's why it has to be that way from, from the beginning in order to prevent that. And in clients where I have, I have worked where we really did set the goals collectively from the beginning, it doesn't happen that way now. When it does, you know, there's, there's always going to be stuff that's out of your control. Right. There are market changes or perhaps product changes that the client made that you had nothing to do with. Right. Or hired salespeople who didn't have the right backgrounds and qualifications. Like there's, there's always going to be outside influence. Right. That aside, if everybody's on the same team from day one, I'll also say inevitably you're going to have other people join the stakeholder circle along the way. Right. That didn't have the opportunity to be there from day one. So it's really important as soon as somebody new comes in, get a new cmo. Right. Well, no flashers were going off. Oh my God. We gotta, you know, educate this new person on what the strategy was and get them on board and make sure that they're brought into the fold is really, really important.

The principle of having everybody on the same song sheet, thousand percent makes sense. And I suppose that's where that, that's what also separates the, the great consultants and service providers who, who do that and stick with it throughout the process. Thanks, Jennifer. That's great. I see a couple of hands up. Mr. Prosser, you have a question?

Mr. Prosser? That was my dad.

Oh.

Before I ask my question, I just.

Want to tell you the Houston rodeo is such a big deal that you can't even imagine. I want to invite you down to Houston to go to it. It's a month long program. It's a month long event that if you're a chairman of any group at all, you are. You're God. And hundreds, if not thousands of people actually participate in this. It's one of the biggest things, if not the biggest thing in Houston. So where are you, Jennifer? You know, hats off to you. I'm in Houston and we have trail riders and we have, I mean we have wine chairmen and I, I probably know 12 people in this town as big as it is.

So there's, there's 35,000 volunteers happen. Yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah.

35, 000 volunteers.

35, 000.

That make it no small thing.

It's bigger than any. That's not a big, you know, a big circle of, you know, bucking broncos with People sitting in the stands.

It's like. It's like, I'm gonna take you up.

Performers.

Anyway, my question is, has to do with AI, and I know you touched.

On it.

And I'm really curious because I didn't hear you say, and I'm sorry about how dark this screen is, but I. I didn't hear you say that AI was really contributing very much to how you were solving the issues that your clients have. You know, where does AI really fit into this? Because I have about two years of AI experience now, and I'm like, it's like everything to me these days, and I do something like you.

Yeah. I can give you a couple of examples of where. Where I see AI helping us today. Two of there are others, but just for time's sake. One is we go through a process to kind of normalize existing content, like working with a client, looking at, okay, give me all the content that you have, and let's help you figure out how it aligns to the stages of the funnel and your different Personas. Right. We're using AI for that, and it really shortens up our time frame. Right. Is it perfect? No. You still need some human intervention, but it is a massive shortcut. The other probably more impactful way that we're using AI is everybody hates forms. You want to read content, some form pops up and you got to answer 10 questions. AgentIC AI is helping us gather some of that information, more of like the demographic, the behavioral information, so that we are less reliant on forms. And it makes it feel. It makes the data capture feel a lot more conversational. For example, if you're leveraging chat. So that's another really, really positive impact it's had.

Okay, well, I wanted to mention to you, I. I've started the caf scramble several times.

Oh, did you?

Yeah.

Are you in Houston?

I was until about six years ago, but. So I. I've been a volunteer for 25 years. Chairman, you know, a couple of times. I'll be down in Houston in a couple weeks for a board meeting, so.

Okay. So I'm going to send you a message, and when you come down, I'd like to meet with you.

Yeah, sounds great.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thanks for letting me ask the question, and I'll turn it back to Andrew.

Yeah, absolutely, Dan. Thank you. Other questions out there, Jennifer. So. So one, perhaps another question. In terms of the. The roles. Let's say, you know, you've got the chief revenue officer who is responsible for both sales and marketing. How. How. Sorry. Actually, the question Is within your organizations, how often do you see like distinctive functions, an organizational distinction between sales and marketing versus the perhaps a trend where they're more under one roof?

That is a really, really great question, Andrew. My answer would be not enough. I think it is a trend that it's getting combined but not quickly and not often enough. We still see, not only do we see, you know, still the, the CMO and then the kind of the head of sales, whatever, that's the CRO that does not also own marketing. We, we think of this notion as the chief Growth officer, which I think is a great title, right? Because marketing and sales both drive growth and as I've probably pontificated far too much already today, they need to be aligned and they need to work together. Down at lower levels, we also see very, very disparate roles. You think of your typical, just thinking of a marketing organization, you've got somebody in charge of the web, right? You got somebody here in charge of events, you got somebody, maybe a writer in charge of content. What we like to see and encourage is to think of your org chart more around your, your stages of the funnel, which I know like you're like, wait, Jennifer, what in the world are you talking about? But bear with me. So somebody who is really focused on the top of the funnel, right? And thinking about how am I, what are the feelers, how can I get people to come to me, what type of content do I need? How do I change my website in order to do that? Where do I need to do my, my paid advertising, right? Somebody else who's really focused on the middle of the funnel, right? So they're focused more on how do I nurture these people, right? And it just makes for a far more cohesive demand generation experience. Without that, it, it has a tendency to feel very unorchestrated, right? Whatever outbound nurture emails you're, you're sending also it needs to be orchestrated with whatever retargeting you're doing online and how you're personalizing your website. And, and when somebody's just siloed thinking about events or siloed that, it makes it very challenging to do the orchestration that I'm talking about. So just food for thought.

So you do see an emerging trend where sales and marketing are more and more aligned under one roof, under a chief growth officer.

We have seen some of that, but not enough. I'd like to see, see more of it because I think it's a, it's a good trend because it does foster that alignment and that getting everybody on the same team. That's interesting.

William, do you have a question?

Yeah. Jennifer, thank you very much for the insights. It's funny, your timing's quite, quite good. I was actually yesterday laying out a process flowchart for culinary innovation to post launch analysis and kind of relate that to your top of the funnel where I'm in the food world. So the top of our funnel starts with you know, marketing, culinary insights, food trends, et cetera and then flows into developing, you know, culinary ideation actually in the kitchen and then looking at that from a business case standpoint. So we've got ideas and trends that are out there. In our case in mid scale casual dining or white tablecloth, they move into the warehouse clubs and then into general retail and into kind of QSRs and ubiquity. So we're looking a little further out. So we rely on marketing and some food trend companies to assist us with what's coming down the road from a trend standpoint. Then we develop the products, then we say okay, we bring sales in and finance in and say okay, you need, you know, we can have the greatest widget in the world but if it costs too much money nobody's going to buy it. So let's put some guardrails starting on it. So you start really wide with trends, you bring it down with sales and finance. Then you're developing based on that cost target, you're developing something with culinary and R and D and then you bring the salesforce in to go show it. And then at the bottom of the funnel you've got operations and that kind of stuff, although they're involved in from a making sure the plants can produce it standpoint. So just, just an observation, I like that funnel approach. The other thing going back to AI was at a conference I think last week. Time flies by. But we were talking about how AI was very beneficial for kind of quickly manipulating data and doing the mundane tasks and freeing up more time for the human interaction that is still needed with customers. And that if you try to use AI to interact with the customers, it ends up not going well in general, particularly if you're targeting, you know, again in my world we're a relatively small company so we're very targeted about who we're going to. So I'll never use AI to go reach out to a thousand folks. The reality is there three dozen that I want to talk to the other I think also in terms of the alignment of sales and marketing together.

I.

Was with a multi billion dollar company for 25 years. And sales and marketing were definitely, you know, separate functions. They weren't necessarily silos because we worked well together. But the last 15 years I've been in basically 150 million dollar and less companies. And those size companies tend to have more underneath one umbrella just because of size and scale and scope of their P Ls and I think that's one of the reasons why I personally enjoy those smaller companies because you tend to be more aligned out of necessity. The bigger you get, the easier it is to layer on processes and silos. So just observations, but thank you for all your insights.

No, thank you. You sound like you're in a very interesting business.

That's fun. I love to eat, so who doesn't?

I love to ideate on pedal food.

For 40 years and solution solutions around food for lots of different folks. I enjoy it.

I'm hungry now.

I appreciate your insights. Thanks William. That's, that's good. In Jennifer, let's, let's wrap things up. I mean and you know, do you have one or two nuggets of wisdom, Some, some advice, some best practices? Do this, don't do that as, as we wrap up.

Yeah, I mean work together. Right, We've talked about that quite a bit. Work together, talk to your prospects and customers. You know, I feel like marketers don't do a good enough job of listening. We do a lot of talking, not enough listening. So think about, you know, like a first date. Right. You should be doing more listening than talking. And, and, and get away from, from what we like to think of and call random acts. I still see a lot of random acts going on out there. And I'm referring to things like, hey, we need more leads, let's do a webinar. Hey, we need more leads. Let's write a white paper and spend a bunch of money advertising everywhere. Right? Those are random acts. You are better, better off just halting all of that and getting your strategy together, doing your research, getting a strategy together and then going out with a meaningful, full orchestrated demand that those would be my three big nuggets.

I love those. I love those. In the world of sales, it's like one of the first lessons ever. Remember, we have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

I love that. Yes, we do.

Very good. So how do people get in touch with you? And yeah, if you know anybody listening today or in the recording and want to have a separate conversation with you, what are your contacts?

Feel free. You can ping me on LinkedIn, Jennifer Harmel, or you can just shoot me a direct email. It's just my name, no periods, no dashes just Jennifer H A R M E l@anannuitous.com. happy to continue the conversation. I I could talk about this for for eons so feel free to just drop me a line and we'll chat.

Excellent. Excellent Jennifer, what a treat to have you. Thank you very very much. Really appreciate your insights and time. If I don't see you in in Houston at a rodeo then perhaps somewhere else in the country at an event and Dan and Dan as well. Have a great rest of the week the month the quarter it's the new year is right around the corner.

Race to the finish.

Yes. So we will hopefully we do this again soon over the coming months or so early in the year at some point.

Sounds great. Thanks for having me.

Thank you Jennifer. Thanks everybody.

Great everybody.

Participation. All the best.

Bye bye.